Welcome to MLS. Hope you can find a seat!

19/3/2019

Issue 3, Semester 1, 2019

ANONYMOUS

“Our largest commencing class”. Not exactly the words one wishes to hear on the orientation day of a degree oft ridiculed for producing an oversupply of graduates. Alas, words to this effect were uttered to the nearly 400 commencing students in the Derham Theatre just last month. Now, at the end of my first week at MLS, I realise that these words must have been true, because the law school was unable to find sufficient seats to accommodate first year students in their Torts, Obligations, and PPL seminars.

(Imagine the surprise of arriving five minutes late to your first seminar as a law student and having to spend the next four hours hunched on the stairs, or squeezed up to the end of someone else’s desk. These are fates that befell several of my classmates earlier this week. In an undergraduate degree this would be excusable due to the cataclysmic drop off in attendance about to follow, but in a postgraduate degree with essentially mandatory attendance and a faculty that holds onto lecture recordings tighter than Coca-Cola and its formula, this is unacceptable.

Today my own classmates just narrowly avoided the stairs, but nonetheless space was still at an oversubscribed premium. The official university timetable states that the seminars for PPL are capable of fitting 60 students each. The PPL syndicate allocations tell a different story however (see right):

Yes, that’s right. Every single stream of PPL is at, or exceeding seminar capacity by as much as ten percent! This is in a course which explicitly makes the claim “Usually the maximum class size is 60 and in many subjects it is smaller, to enhance the opportunities for interaction between students and teachers and amongst students themselves.”

To avoid this situation all the law school would have needed to do would be to increase the number of first year streams to 7. This would in turn bring down the average class size to a still rather large 54 students. For a degree that is costing the majority of students over one hundred thousand dollars (or circa $100/seminar-hour if you are so inclined) it is completely unacceptable that the university is sacrificing quality in such a brazen manner.

I write this post individually, but having spoken to peers at lunch events and the garden party I know I am not the only one concerned about the situation. With the addition of another stream impossible at this stage, it is simply my hope that the law school will acknowledge the issue so it is not repeated, and find some manner to reduce the impact to students in currently oversized classes.

Anonymous is a First Year JD Student

A note from the Associate Dean (JD)

Students might be interested to know that the JD first year cohort numbered 364 (at the commencement of semester). At the equivalent time in 2018 the figure was 360.

I am concerned to hear from some teachers and students in first year subjects that students have not always been able to get a seat in class. It is my understanding that all classes have been scheduled into rooms with adequate capacity to seat all students enrolled in that stream. We can only surmise that if students are not able to find a seat, this might be either due to people attending a stream that they are not enrolled in, and/or people not moving to the middle of rows. In the interests of all students and staff, please attend your allocated stream and not any other. We will continue to monitor this situation, and teachers may call a roll if matters do not settle down.

Anna Chapman
Associate Dean (JD)
13 March 2019

Other articles in this issue:

JD Veteran

19/3/2019 04:52:15 pm

Honestly. Suck it up, you've got much harder tasks at hand than finding a seat. Complaining 3 weeks into your 3 year degree isn't setting you up for success

smashed avo-eater

19/3/2019 04:59:00 pm

Young people these days... all they do is complain; back in my day we just worked hard and got on with it. If I had to sit cross legged on the floor for four hours whilst paying $100k for my degree, I'd just suck it up!

Law-yah

19/3/2019 05:08:46 pm

Poor thing, so under privileged attending MLS and having to share some desk space! Tackling the big social justice issues we signed up for

De lawyeris

19/3/2019 05:13:23 pm

Which first year classes go for 4 hours?

4-hour

19/3/2019 05:23:25 pm

Two back to back seminars in the same classroom.

May I have some more, sir

19/3/2019 05:14:04 pm

if you consider yourself a ‘JD Veteran’ and obseqiously accept everything faculty decides then there are bigger problems with the teaching at mls

19/3/2019 05:16:41 pm

I'm not a precious snow flake who finds everything unfair and has a little whinge because I can't find a seat. Grow up and get on with it

Snowflake alert

19/3/2019 05:21:36 pm

ah yes, everything who isn’t willing to have the quality of their education lowered so the university can rake in an extra million must be a snowflake

Another JD Veteren

19/3/2019 06:12:51 pm

Us veteren's have (more or less) always been able to find a seat though... that's the point.

Us veteren's

19/3/2019 06:39:03 pm

How idiots like you make it past the LSAT I will never know

JD Veteraner

20/3/2019 06:41:10 pm

JD Veteran is totally right, there's absolutely no sense in banding together collectively in order to improve your negotiating postion and secure gains for the group.

better 👏 things 👏 aren't 👏 possible

Lol

19/3/2019 05:21:58 pm

One should think the ability to find a seat is a basic fundamental of the teaching arrangement at MLS. It's not a luxury we should be grateful for.

Peace keeper

19/3/2019 05:28:20 pm

Correct, but I think people need to put it in perspective maybe. Not the hardest issue first years will face during the JD. Law is inherently unfair, for example the clerkship process is incredibly difficult and unfair, with many places going to well connected but hardly worthy students. Pick your battles maybe haha

Peace-keeper or strikebreaker?

20/3/2019 06:53:04 pm

Individual students have no leverage dealing with MLS admin or with Big Six law firms. What are you, as a single law student, supposed to do to get the partners at HSF to change their recruitment process?

To frame the clerkship process as being a contest between 'well-connected students' and others undermines the solidarity that should exist among all students. We can only solve these problems by acting together, and the the kind of organising that would be required to secure concessions from Pip Nicholson and friends could only help tipping the balance away from commerical law firms and graduates.

Sure, pick your battles. But it's not like doing nothing about lecture crowding will 'conserve your energy' to help fight Allens.

Naughty Chair

19/3/2019 05:53:34 pm

Gee JD Vereran, too bad we can’t all have as low standards as you. Imagine being content to study law through the Melbourne model when you could have gone straight to Monash, do another 24 subjects at a cost of thousands of dollars each and add another 3 years of your life studying and being told you have to sit on the floor. Enjoy your next 3 years mr “Veteran”, though I suspect you won’t last that long.

Original veteran

19/3/2019 09:32:29 pm

Already graduated mate.

Unoriginal Veteran

20/3/2019 06:05:27 pm

Imagine having graduated and using your free time to anonymously chastise first years... I take it you didn’t get a grad job, OV?

Chill, UV

20/3/2019 06:57:58 pm

Original Veteran is saying things that are dumb and wrong. Talk about that, not about whether or not his dad's connections got him a grad job at Clayton Utz.

Trying to get personal with someone posting anonymously seems pretty pointless.

Judge Judy Judges Judgedly at her failing JD marks

19/3/2019 10:37:31 pm

Gee who needs a seat! Why not just get rid of PowerPoints and lecture theatres. Connect with the wild and have classes outdoors while doing tai-chi. My arthritis will love it.

Degree Mill Maths

19/3/2019 05:09:48 pm

classes cannot be capped at 60 even if the cohort is 364, not to mention second years repeating...

Excuse me

19/3/2019 05:17:41 pm

Way to minimize the growing size of the cohort year on year Professor Chapman. Let's not forget 2018 required the addition of an extra LMR. I've heard from a credible faculty source that the 2018 cohort was closer to 340.

Come on

19/3/2019 07:08:44 pm

Could we please at least talk respectfully?

c'mon

20/3/2019 06:59:25 pm

yes definitely, policing the terms of the discourse is more important than anything that is actually being discussed

Not Policing

21/3/2019 11:08:43 am

It is obviously good to discuss important issues. But, as the person above has implied, rudeness distracts from the important points that are being raised. Nothing wrong with being polite and respectful - even in disagreement.

Expectation, meet Reality

19/3/2019 06:14:33 pm

If students expect (and pay for) a premium law school education they should receive smaller class sizes than the alternatives. Maybe MLS will no longer be the premier law school but only the most expensive. Let's hope not

Edmond Stewart

19/3/2019 07:05:36 pm

Not that it's much comfort, but there is a not insignificant group of people who drop out, especially first sem first year. This will do something to alleviate crowding...

NB: this shouldn't be stigmatised, some people drop out because they acquire full time jobs or carer obligations, they may transfer to a different university, or change their citizenship status. There are many reasons beyond "they can't hack it" that a person leaves the JD.

True

19/3/2019 09:58:32 pm

Is it really a justifiable practice to accept more students than classrooms can hold in the assumption that after a few weeks of putting up with it people will drop out?

20/3/2019 01:54:29 pm

My post was mainly gallows humour, although I think it's uncontroversially true that we should be able to seat all our students. I would point out though that this kind of practice is also common in other industries (e.g. Airlines, albeit budget airlines perhaps not analogous to MLS) .

Jessica

19/3/2019 08:17:20 pm

I think it's obscene that MLS will take $100k from people and then have classes of 60+ students - truly not the experience 'sold' prior to enrolment. P.s. I'm a 'veteran' - which must be some kind of badge that demonstrates being more 'woke' than first years... yawn.

4 years in the hole

19/3/2019 09:08:34 pm

Not to detract from the importance you may give to this issue- but wait and see how pissed you are when-

You can't have any lectures recorded even though you are bleeding in hospital, or you live hours away and your train is out for maintenance for the month

You have to attend your 3 hour exams at 8.15am back to back- hope you can afford somewhere to sleep in the city the night before...or you enjoy 5am starts!

Oh you work on the weekend? Not when it's take home time...no you won't even eat during that weekend, let alone work

You want to do X elective? Well get in fast. Oh...actually that won't help- your electives are capped and the random selection process to fulfil quota won't take into account any of your personal needs

Clerkships. Enough said.

The bell curve marking where a perfect exam somehow translates into an 85 and an excellent exam is somehow a 75?

Not trying to scare you or say the overcrowding isn't a problem- sadly it may just be one of the few things you'll have to rant about in the coming years. Good luck guys

Another 4th year

19/3/2019 09:28:59 pm

Agree with this. Kudos to those who initiate change, good on you first years for mentioning the issues. Like this comment states, there will be so so many things to complain about in the coming years, so hopefully your cohort will instigate some much needed change!

James

19/3/2019 10:01:38 pm

Hi there, could you elaborate on the ‘Clerkshios. Enough said’ comment and the comment about bell curves?

20/3/2019 03:30:05 pm

Hey James.

Not sure where you are in your degree atm, if first year you will find out lots about both of these things in the coming months. A little info about the clerkship process and why it is such a shit show-

Essentially: most people do clerkships in their second year (penultimate students) and applications open in July and close in August. This means you will likely be trying to balance the hell Semester of Property, Admin, Trusts and a 4th subject if you are bloody brave whilst going through the motions of filling out arduous and time-consuming cover letters (specific to each firm), long-ass questions about how you loove to hold hands and sing Kumbaya (teamwork!) whilst ensuring you demonstrate your commercial acumen, not to mention taking endless tests about which damn shape comes next- because we all know lawyers need this skill.

Then you sit for weeks waiting for an interview offer and no-one shuts up about it so you can't even pretend to forget. If you don't get an offer- it's not so much that you suck as a person, which is how it might feel, but is sometimes that someone else's Mother is a barrister and they worked for their chambers (work experience aka. g old nepotism). If lucky enough to get interview offers you are privileged to go to cocktail evenings where you will pretend to LOVEE Mergers and Acquisitions?? From where exactly your endless adoration for Project Finance came is beyond me- but find it because somehow everyone else has? Then its interview day: its more about the luck of the draw with your interviewer, but if you prepare its manageable. NB: hope your studies are surviving at this point still. Then its offer day- most people don't even show at uni on this day it's that emotionally charged. If you don't get one- too bad. If you do, you get to work your ass off as a clerk for a few weeks during the holiday and not all of you will get Grad jobs after that.

I don't say this to scare you- but hope that your cohort will be sceptical of this process and approach it more realistically than we did: look after yourself a bit better than we did and realise that its just one way to get a job- and your health and studies are more important than nabbing a clerkship at all costs.

Re bell curving. Well the bell curve means that only a certain amount of people can get the high scores. In undergrad (Arts- Melbourne [yes, sorry, typical]) I had 10 subjects in the 90's: 98, 96, 95 etc. Here I've only heard of a handful of people that have ever breached 90- though I could be misinformed: and I'm not one of them. The gist of it is that by the time you finish you will likely have been told at least once, 'oh you got that grade not because anything was wrong with your paper, just can't give 80s to everyone'. I really hope it's only once.

Hope this helps a bit and doesn't freak you out. Just prepare yourself for some of these things so you can handle them better than we did.

Bell curve confusion confession

21/3/2019 08:29:34 am

Does that bell curve matter if everyone is getting put on the same curve though? If the highest mark is 90, then 90 is the highest mark for everyone?

Are you able to explain this a bit more

21/3/2019 12:50:01 pm

Hi BCCC,

No worries! I can only speak from my experience and the experience of those I know: hope it's helpful.

As a matter of principle: it matters because you want to get the grade you deserve, not the grade you get because of a stupid curve. It gets pretty frustrating working yourself to death and knowing there is a ceiling on what grade you can achieve. In my opinion, the grade is out of 100. Therefore 100 should be possible. There shouldn't be an imposed limit of 90, otherwise just make it out of 90.

Importantly though as well- other law schools don't seem to have the same restrictive marking systems: ie. some friends at Monash and Deakin quite often and comfortably receive mid 80s. The issue with this that I've found is that when you are trying to get a job the 'but I'm from Melbourne' card doesn't hold as much currency as you might expect. I'm not saying that firms don't look favourably upon a MLS degree, to an extent I am sure they do- however, your say 75 (which you've worked you ass off for, and which is a bloody good average FOR MLS) may be compared to 30 people from Deakin who have a GPA of 80+.

Again this is just my experience- I truly hope you experience something different.

simon

26/3/2019 06:23:34 pm

4 Years in the Hole is fundamentally wrong about the bell curve. It almost always is to the advantage of students. Law professors are notoriously harsh markers, so the bell curve generally lifts the grades of the whole cohort higher. I know for a fact (from faculty) that my grades in Torts, PPL and Obligations were raised due to the bell curve (and that's higher into the H1 category in case you think the curve only helps people lower down). People don't get 100% because none of us are ever 100% correct. Some people do get well into the 90s, albeit rarely, and that's because they deserve to. A 75 from MLS is worth a lot more than an 80 from Deakin, so don't let the way other law schools scale grades bother you. Electives are not graded on a curve, and if you get a harsh professor, as some classes do, don't be surprised when the grades a lot lower than in core subjects. Likewise electives can go the opposite way with teachers being more generous because there's no limit to how many must be in each grade. But that's risky both ways, so generally the curve helps stabilise things. In any case, it's not major one way or the other, most of the time the overall grade will go up like 2 marks, except when certain professors are particular outliers in their marking.

29/3/2019 04:03:35 pm

Hi Simon.

Re your comments about electives. Quite a few are bell curved. Sorry

I'm glad you've had a better experience than most students re bell curve- but I think you will find you are in a minority. "Higher into an H1"- 80+ is only 15% of the cohort. The bell doesn't simply move everyone up- it also moves people down. That's the problem. It takes away a grade people deserve. You should get what you get.

Also- what year are you/ what experience have you had that makes you believe Melb is regarded better than say Deakin?

Who you callin a Snowflake?

20/3/2019 07:50:20 am

Here's a veteran speaking to those brainless so called 'veterans' dissing people for being upset that they can't find a seat.

Clearly you are some over-privileged dweebs that do not know or truly understand the value of money. As an international student, I need to pay those exorbitant fees upfront (and no, Mommy and Daddy do not pay like your's do). I work my beeping bum off everyday to be able to afford this gosh dinger school and things such as lack of seating, and unavailability of recordings and electives, are certainly issues which should be acknowledged and FIXED by MLS (p.s. new rotating doors are at the very bottom of the fix-it list - what a useless waste of money).

There are several other reputable and far less reputable schools where such things are NOT an issue - apparently they aren't greedy fudgers and decided to ensure their students are pretty much getting the basics - SUCH as a SEAT to sit their hardworking bums on (c'mon kids I've got back issues).

You (the aforementioned dweebs) are part of the PROBLEM/reason the majority of the cohort is having to put up with this codswallop. Take your insensitivity and shove it up your foofah - Good day.

ANGRY jd student

20/3/2019 09:33:28 am

haha so first they filled the library with international students and THEN they took in so many international students that there wern't enough seats in the classes. good meme Anna Chapman.

whats the endgame here? are they going to run an intake of 400 students next year?

Does Melbourne Law School have any standards left at all?

Fellow jd student

20/3/2019 09:36:57 am

Let's hope not... There's hardly enough jobs for the current cohort let alone if they increase to 400!

angry jd student

20/3/2019 07:10:03 pm

international students are students, like you. why would you spend any energy being angry at them when you could direct your anger towards the actual decision-makers that are cutting resources allocated per student, refusing to implement basic equity reforms like lecture recordings, and hiring faculty not based on teaching ability but on their capacity to churn out research papers that juice MLS's place in the Time Higher Education ranking?

just seems kinda dumb to be blaming 'commerce students' for this mess, tbh

Placid Student

20/3/2019 11:16:03 pm

There’s nothing wrong with accepting international students per se - UniMelb should fit as many as they can cater to! However, when teaching services (and the job market) CANNOT cater, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that Australian institution prioritise education Australians.

Institutions like UniMelb are built and sustained by Australians (including substantial taxpayer support). What does the average working person think about the potential devaluation of Australian intellectual capital, with the Unis educating fewer Australians to boot?

eyes wide shut

21/3/2019 07:38:02 pm

Does anyone else notice the parallel with "they are taking our jobs" or "they are taking over our country" or "they cannot assimilate in our culture"?

This "they" is too pernicious a problem; rears its ugly head everywhere!

Sad

20/3/2019 06:14:57 pm

This is why we can't have nice comments sections.

Super Sad

21/3/2019 07:33:10 pm

#interwebs

Am I missing something...

22/3/2019 08:23:48 pm

So Anna Chapman has stated that the JD first year cohort numbered 364 and that all classes have been scheduled into rooms with adequate capacity (i.e. 60 spaces) to seat all students enrolled in that stream. But Degree Mill Maths above raised an interesting point that is yet to be addressed (maybe because commenters seem to resort to attacking international students or telling each other to suck it up). If there are 7 streams (as can be gleaned from the PPL syndicate list) and 364 students, plus repeating second year students, it is mathematically impossible for rooms not to be over capacity. So, like, am I missing something here? If someone can enlighten me, please do.

You're not

23/3/2019 05:42:21 pm

No, that's the point.
There's 6 streams with 60-66 students each for a total of 376 students.
Anna conveniently failed to account for repeating 2nd years. Even still 364 / 6 > 60, so the rooms are over capacity.

If pressed I suspect the faculty would claim that nonetheless the rooms are actually capable of seating more than the stated 60 students.

Am i missing something

24/3/2019 08:58:30 am

Wow. So Anna Chapman is misleading students and readers of this publication? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

The Censorate

24/3/2019 04:12:55 pm

So Jackson must be on holiday since he isn't slashing away in this comments section.

De Minimis Editorial Team

27/3/2019 10:02:51 am

All comments on this site are moderated by the Online Editor. Any decision as to breaches of our policy are made by the whole editorial team, after consultation. Our policy on defamation and student misconduct can be found here https://www.deminimis.com.au/get-published.html

double standard

27/3/2019 10:23:57 am

So people mentioned something about Jackson's mate that can be easily googled and you deleted that, but here people are attacking a senior member of the faculty and that's fine? Strange.

Non sequitur

27/3/2019 12:35:27 pm

To double standard, no one is attacking a senior member of the faculty. The faculty gave a response and commenters are entitled to respond in turn if they disagree.

non sequitur, really?

27/3/2019 02:13:57 pm

@AM I MISSING SOMETHING said this: "Wow. So Anna Chapman is misleading students and readers of this publication? I guess I shouldn't be surprised."

Sure, commenters can respond but not do this!

This is from the link provided by the editorial team: "Treat staff and other students with respect and courtesy".

@DOUBLE STANDARD was correct.

Am I missing something

27/3/2019 03:28:51 pm

How was my comment disrespectful?

you are missing a lot

27/3/2019 04:32:43 pm

"disrespectful"

noun

Showing a lack of respect or courtesy; impolite.

I rest my case.

you are also missing something

27/3/2019 04:45:03 pm

it's an adjective not a noun hahaha

All the missings

27/3/2019 07:37:18 pm

@NON SEQUITUR, REALLY? The article is about classrooms being over capacity. Anna Chapman tries to obfuscate by citing enrollment numbers in each cohort rather than directly responding to the issue at hand. Ergo, she was 'misleading students and readers'. This is far from disrespectful and discourteous, it's the truth. And it's certainly a long way from an attack, as claimed by DOUBLE STANDARD. If faculty can't take the heat of being challenged, they shouldn't have walked into the kitchen.

NON SEQUITUR, REALLY?

29/3/2019 06:51:08 pm

I feel pretty confident in saying that no student would walk up to Anna Chapman and say to her face, 'You are misleading students and readers of this publication? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.'

Why? Because it is - wait for it - disrespectful and impolite.

On that note, I am also pretty confident that @DOUBLE STANDARD was referring to the deleted comment (on Xavier Boffa's article) that mentioned the allegations of gender discrimination and harassment. Whether or not Xavier Boffa committed those acts, the allegations themselves did occur. Yet, the reference to mere allegations was deleted on account of violating the posting guidelines. On the other hand, people here are repeatedly insisting that it is okay to be rude to a staff member, and that is not eliciting the same response.

Double standard, indeed.

Henry

7/4/2019 11:32:55 pm

It's good to see a site like this. I really think MLS is taking a few liberties charging so much for a degree, (I paid 8k total nearly thirty years ago) and not even having enough seats!
For too long universities have treated students pretty badly, and given how much you're paying for such an oversubscribed degree the least they could do is provide enough seats. Hassle them for accurate job figures too.....

Comments are closed.

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