A Plea to Our First Years

26/3/2018

Issue 5

By Timothy Sarder

The lifeblood and composition of a student body is annually refreshed, with a new set of first-years replacing the final year students who’ve just left. By the end of a four-year cycle in the JD, we effectively have an entirely different set of people making up the cohort.

Do the values and actions of the former students linger in that exchange of time? Yes, to an extent. Enough of a “handover” takes place that the impact made by prior years isn’t completely erased. This is formalised, institutionally, by student groups such as the LSS and LLSN that have constitutions, aims, and customs passed down. It also happens in informally, through discussions and friendships with students in earlier years, and learning about their experiences in the degree. And, to get a bit meta, it occurs through ‘constructive’ (yes, I read the comments section too) dialogue in formats like De Minimis.

Image credit: Errin Otten (fair usage)

Unlike most other courses at this University, you do not, by default, have access to recordings of your lectures at law school. The reasons for or against this policy have been discussed in previous De Minimis articles. My concern is for new students who find themselves irked by the law school’s policy (or its implementation) on recordings. There may be those who are already questioning it. There will also be those who find themselves disadvantaged when they suffer from the realities of life that result in them not being able to keep up with classes through recordings, or having to jump through arbitrary administrative hoops in order to get those recordings.

It used to be worse. There used to be effectively no recordings. However, in 2016 a petition was made in support of recorded lectures that ignited rigorous debate amongst both staff and students. It spurred on official support for fully recorded lectures in law from UMSU and the GSA, as well as consultation with the LSS and LLSN on the issue. The ultimate result was a policy change and the introduction of limited lecture recordings. Now, one lecture stream per subject (for a selection of compulsory subjects only) is recorded each semester for students who can demonstrate ongoing need or other particular considerations requiring them to access the recordings. This is the policy that has remained in place since, other than the requirement of 10-days consecutive absence needing to be shown being relaxed to only 10 days cumulative absence.

2018 is special. We don’t just have a new year of students. We have a new Dean with the appointment of Professor Pip Nicholson. I was fortunate to be present at an informal meeting with the new Dean and several stakeholders in the lecture recordings debate, namely Nicholas Parry-Jones (founder of the original petition), Toby Silcock (UMSU Education (Academic Affairs) Officer) and Brad Knight (GSA General Secretary). Dean Nicholson expressed an understanding of, and a willingness to listen to, our concerns and frustrations about the current policy. The Dean also noted that there are complex intersecting cultural, equity, and pedagogical issues underpinning this debate. The Dean suggested that if there is to be progress on the issue, it would not likely be made on a whim, but after a long process – such as through a student working group that would collect quantitative data.

There is a very old De Minimis issue from decades gone by on the fears of the technology of using slide projectors adversely impacting upon the teaching style and character of law lecturing. In the decades since, we have seen not just slide projectors, but PowerPoint, laptops, and the capacity to record lectures come in, and I wonder whether any of them have or will substantially alter the fundamental mode of learning at the school. Point is, there has always, and will always be reactionaries drawing the longbow as a means to argue against the implementation of changes that may benefit students.

If you are a first-year student who finds yourself dismayed by the state of lecture recordings at this law school – please be aware of, and consider the above. Think through what constructive steps you can take to advocate for change on this issue. If advances in student equity are always incremental, then we must, at the very least, make sure they keep up their momentum.

John

27/3/2018 12:31:15 am

Tim, remember that there are still plenty of students who are opposed to recording of all lectures. I don't think it's very nice of you to label them 'reactionary' just because they happen to disagree with your point of view.

Personally, while I support limited recording for students who are unable to attend due to disability or illness (as we currently have), I think mandatory recording of all lectures would ultimately be bad for students. Part of what makes law school interesting is having a full room of people willing to discuss ideas. By introducing recording, you're not only providing a very strong incentive for students to not attend class (by providing a far more convenience alternative), you're also stifling discussion by putting everything 'on the record'.

I'd also like to see some studies of how many students who skip class with the intention of listening to a later recording actually (a) listen to the lecture in full or in part; and (b) absorb the material to the same extent as students who attend in person. I know personally in my undergraduate days I would very rarely actually listen to recorded lectures when I missed class (despite always intending to), and if I did I would be distracted by other things while doing so, because I was not in the confines of a lecture hall surrounded by others. Just my personal experience but I'd be very surprised if my experience was isolated.

He’s right you know.

27/3/2018 07:08:39 am

The existence of online recordings can be very damaging to a student’s educational experience. The availability of online recordings is a huge temptation which they can do without. When students skip class safe in the knowledge that they can just watch it online later, they commonly do not actually watch it later, or allow them to pile up and attempt to cram them all into a weekend before exams. Sure, some students are very highly organised and have a lot of self discipline, but the truth is many of us are suckers for procrastination and the more excuses we are given the more we will take. We frankly need saving from ourselves.

Recordings should be available for those with certain special needs. I believe they should continue to be unavailable for everyone else. A common complaint I hear is that of work commitments, to which I say, too bad. If you are working so many hours that you cannot attend classes, you should be either working less or studying less. The welfare of most students should not be compromised for a minority who choose to overload on their commitments.

Ya, but

27/3/2018 08:01:18 pm

Whilst I agree with most of the above, unfortunately “just working less” isn’t a viable option for everyone. Just a thought!

Gross comment

27/3/2018 09:34:55 pm

Interesting Orwellian twist on the word "welfare" to describe not providing a student equity entitlement to students. Perhaps law school is the opportunity for you to learn that self-discipline you state you lack. You seem to believe those students "working too many hours" require more discipline but did you consider that those are the students who are most disadvantaged and most in need of support?

I've had many times where I can't afford to not take on more hours to pay rent in my degree.

But you're not

27/3/2018 10:53:46 pm

Hmm, let's see, not being able to attend class because you have to work to survive vs not having the self control to stop procrastinating and commit to listening a recording. I wonder which deserves to come under the label of 'welfare'. Seriously dude, was your comment meant to be satirical ?

I'm right you know

27/3/2018 11:26:19 pm

Part time work is probably required for anyone living independently without family assistance and studying the JD, but anything more isn't really that necessary. This is why youth allowance and austudy exists, which along with rent assistance gives students living independently something like $550 per fortnight. Coupled with part time work of even just 10 hours a week should be sufficient for pretty much everyone. Its not luxurious but you can certainly survive and even survive comfortably. If you can't afford to pay rent, maybe you should be renting somewhere cheaper.

Full time university degrees are really not set up to accommodate working long hours and attempting to rake in big bucks at the same time as studying. The whole idea is to sacrifice a number of years of your life now during which you generate low income, in return for boosting your earning power once you have your qualification.

Generally I just tend to think the fewer opportunities available for a student to get into bad habits like skipping their classes, the better. Apart from this there are other reasons not to support recording classes, as mentioned above, such as it detracting from in class face to face discussion, decreased immersion when viewing from home instead of within a classroom, and the potential to stifle discussion when everything anyone says is logged online for later review by the ministry of truth. Weighed against making things more convenient for those who are trying to juggle too many commitments, I think it is better to keep to policy of not allowing recordings.

Living on Centrelink and Work

28/3/2018 08:42:40 am

It's barely enough to survive. The "$550" a fortnight you get from Centrelink starts to get reduced as you start earning money from part time or casual work. The Centrelink amounts themselves are below the poverty line.

The reality is students here who are living at home or get a large stipend from family each week etc., (i.e are not living independently) simply cannot imagine the stress and experience of living off of only Centrelink and work. It is also more viable for some than others (what expenses do they have? do they have a medical conditions which requires prescriptions they pay for? etc.?). That's not the fault of those students who are supported by family - that's very lucky for them, and they should be grateful. However, those students should not say comments like "ah, those people on Centrelink shouldn't whinge, they have enough".

28/3/2018 02:46:11 pm

A single person renting alone can get $580.6 per fortnight from independent youth allowance/Austudy and rent assistance.You can earn up to $437 per fortnight beyond which the payment starts to decrease. It doesn’t take much to reach $437, about 10-15 hours a week should do it, and this usually shouldn’t be enough to cause a conflict with classes.

If you’re telling me it’s not possible for the average full time student to live on $26,500 a year I just don’t believe it. Yes you have to live frugally, but you can’t expect much more when you’re dedicating what is supposed to be a full time work load to the non-profit generating activity that is study.

Timothy

28/3/2018 03:50:02 pm

It's beyond living frugally, it is a severe amount of stress and hardship compared to someone who does not have that time. If you live out of home and have to work it does significantly cut into your time to attend classes, complete assignments, and perform the extra curricular activities.

Such is life and perhaps you figure those students "live within their means" and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, etc., But acting like it doesn't impact studying and that those students wouldn't benefit from recorded lectures is absurd. And their need is greater than those who haven't learned the discipline to attend lectures even though they have an old

cf Please see previous OG Tim Sarder article Time is Money: Fear of the Word Class https://www.deminimis.com.au/articles/time-is-money-fear-of-the-word-class which I wrote on first year on this point. I encourage today's first-years to write De Minimis articles as well so they too can be linked them in other De Minimis articles three years later.

Tim (addendum)

28/3/2018 03:52:37 pm

Meant to say - and their need is greater than those who haven't learned the discipline to attend lectures even though they have abundant free-time without work obligations outside university.

Probably Some rich asshole

28/3/2018 04:19:17 pm

I frankly don’t believe that anyone can legitimately claim class differences that mean they need to work make it too difficult for them to attend classes.

There are 168 hours in a week. Let’s say you sleep 8 hours each night bringing your available time down to 112 hours. Let’s say you take 4 subjects each semester (which most JD students don’t), so attend class class 16 hours per week (8 x 2 hour classes). That brings you down to 96 hours a week. Let’s say you do 10 hours of private study for each subject each week (which again, most JD students absolutely don’t). That leaves you with 56 hours.

Add on say 15 hours of work a week, you are down to 41 hours. Let’s add 10 hours of travel time for good measure.

So even on an extreme estimate, you can be working, doing 4 subjects a week, and still have 31 hours a week to do whatever the fuck you want. Reduce the study load to 3 subjects as most people do, and you claw back another 14 hours. Most people aren’t putting in 10 hours of study for each subject each week either.

The point is, another measely 15 hours of work per week does not suddenly make it prohibitive or even just particularly more difficult to attend classes or put you at any great disadvantage againsy those who for whatever reason do not need to work.

28/3/2018 04:43:32 pm

A student here once told me that they thought students who have to work to survive actually have an "advantage" because they learn time-management skills that those who don't work lack the time to develop. The argument provided above about 'self-discipline' is a similar perverse twist on trying to assert the more lucky and well-off are the ones who truly suffer.

The reality is if you work, say, 15 hours a week - as in your hypothetical, and you are travelling 10 hours there and back (losing 25 hours) that's 25 hours less where you could have set aside dedicated time to study. Work can also be stressful and physically demanding; it isn't just about the time lost working and travelling to work, students who work will need time to unwind and rest. It isn't realistic in many cases from going straight from work to study (those who say it is have likely never worked a job which is severely physically demanding, or perhaps even emotionally or mentally draining - a cruisy shift's in Dad's office doesn't quite cut it!)

25 hours less a week to study adds up to, if we're to try your cost-benefit video game stats analysis of things, at least 300 hours less time that could have been spend studying in a semester. Don't pretend that isn't significant. It stands to reason such students may have more difficulty at times to attend lectures on top of all their other commitments. Allowing them to keep up on the odd occasion that happens rather than burning out or falling behind is reasonable; far more reasonable than not recording them to teach students who don't work "discipline".

27/3/2018 09:32:21 pm

Hi John,

Thank you for your comment.

In writing this article, as may be clear, my intent was less so to enter into the pros and cons of the lecture recordings debate again (as they've been mapped out in several links within this article, including previous articles, the comments on those articles, the petition, and the comments on that petition).

I am more interested in playing a role in allowing first-years who are inclined to views more similar to mine on this issue to be aware of the steps and debate that has occurred so far. That said, perhaps the separation I've attempted to take - to encourage "newbies" to get involved in the debate without jumping back in the debate myself, is not a step that is entirely possible. Nonetheless, your, and my time on this may have come on gone already (understanding you are leaving in 2016 and I am soon to depart MLS for another planet at the end of this Semester as well), I am keen to hear the fresh voices on that material. Still, I will attempt to deal with several of your points.

I understand you are frustrated with the use of the term "reactionary". A reactionary is one who is opposing reform in favour of maintaining the status quo. The term is appropriate. Particularly in the context of that paragraph - when lectures are recorded in almost every course at most other universities (including this one), the decision to not record them is as arcane as being averse to slide projectors or PowerPoints.

With regard to the the incentive to not attend class and its relationship to class discussion, it must be stressed that myself (and others advocating for recorded lectures) do not believe they are to replace in-class learning. I love our class discussions as anyone who has had to suffer through me being the Loudmouth McGee in the classroom would know. Recordings are not a complete substitute, but they are of significant assistance for those that do have reasons why they occasionally need to miss class. The hypothetical student who would simply not go to any classes if they were recorded is not likely one who would be the most actively speaking one in the class either.

As for the supposed "chilling-effect" regarding discussion - I doubt it. Most classes are up to sixty people. I'm not sure that there are many points students would raise where would be comfortable having sixty other students overhear their voice but not be comfortable with those same students hearing it on a recording. Moreover, the microphones would be set up in such a way that generally only the lecturer would be clearly audible (further compounding the point that recordings are not a complete substitute, but an aid).

Radical Conservative

27/3/2018 11:34:23 pm

"A reactionary is one who is opposing reform in favour of maintaining the status quo. The term is appropriate. "

If I wanted to reform the marriage act and ban gay marriage, and you wanted to retain the status quo, does that make you a reactionary?

28/3/2018 04:53:30 pm

The anti-gay marriage in that scenario is probably more likely to be the reactionary there (being the regressive stance) but this article is about lecture recordings getting pretty tangential here

Conservative Radical

28/3/2018 06:53:42 pm

So does being a reactionary mean opposing a reform or does it only mean opposing a reform that you happen to personally agree with and support?

Or do you think “reform” only means changing things in a way that you like and never in a way you don’t like?

A grad

27/3/2018 06:59:05 pm

I think the above commenters should try entering a job market where the majority of those competing with you for jobs had recorded lectures and then see if they hold their views.

27/3/2018 07:26:22 pm

Hi A Grad, I am the first commenter and am currently a solicitor at a top tier firm, after graduating from MLS in 2016.

I feel that the lack of recorded lecrures benefitted - rather than hindered - my education.

Genuinely interested

27/3/2018 09:24:36 pm

What do you think the correlation is between recorded/non-recorded lectures and performance in the job market?

A Grad

28/3/2018 09:01:04 pm

The correlation is a 24% grad placement rate, while paying 20% more than the nearest (imo only) competition. The correlation is a near 50-50 match with our G08 competitors at top firms. It should not be this way. When students (or the tax payer) pay 20% more we should be AT LEAST 20% better represented.

The correlation can be seen on LinkedIn. Monash grads will have much more experience, know more people and be placed wider in the legal community. People (like the HR of certain red coloured, left leaning firms) say that MLS only produces corporate lawyer wannabes, but it is more that the MLS student can only enter this myopic path of clerk-grad-solicitor at a top or mid tier.

This placement rate has run on effects. Those forced to pay up front for their PLT are hamstrung through lack of experience and connections (and savings) that their peers gain work readily to earn this money or even, find a job that doesn't come through a grad programme.

Recorded lectures may or may not improve this, but if all of our competitors get this, wouldn't you want it too, especially if you pay a premium compared to them?

I'm lucky. I've worked full time in law since I finished (after summering abroad, of course), and many hours during in lucrative fields but I am not the average law student. I recall a 2016 grad named John - he passed on classes to work. He now works at a top tier firm. He went to my top tier high school. If he were to read this, I'm sure he'd acknowledge he's not the average law student either.

Genuinely Interested

30/3/2018 12:38:03 am

Thanks for your reply, A Grad. I'm still not sure that I'm convinced between your suggested connection between recorded lectures and performance in the job market. You point to Monash law students' better work experience at the time of graduating as giving them a possible advantage in the job market, but I would suggest that this is probably more likely due to the fact that they're seeking part time legal work/ volunteering throughout a 5-6 year law degree, as opposed to a 3-3.5 year one as we are in the Melbourne JD.

I would tend to agree with John that a lack of recorded lectures (obviously with an exception for those with circumstances, such as disability or carer responsibilities, who need recordings) actually improves the value of education at MLS. I'm sure most students who went through arts degrees at Melb Uni in undergrad can agree that the standard of teaching was far less rigorous, due in large part to the fact that lectures were recorded and extremely poorly attended. As a result, graduates of that degree can come out having had very little engagement with their course, and this is reflected in the lower value that most employers place on those degrees. If the same trend toward lack of engagement through lack of need to attend class were to be replicated in the JD, I suspect that the standard of graduates (in terms of knowledge and skills gained throughout their JD degree) would fall, and therefore the respect for the degree in the job market would fall as well.

Reactionaries go Back Centuries

10/4/2018 07:44:20 am

Socrates was worried about the introduction of the use of books in schools impacting students' ability to remember things. We only remember this now because Plato wrote it down.

Guess the law school's commitment to the "Socratic method" is more than skin deep eh?

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