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  • Blog

People at MLS have ruined my enjoyment of the JD

8/5/2020

 
Issue 10, Volume 17

ANONYMOUS​

Everything I had read about the JD before I began was stuff that I was confident I could handle; high workloads, pressure to succeed, etc. And I could – I am a third year now, my grades are decent, and I landed a couple of clerkships. But the thing that has ruined my enjoyment is not all that. It is not the late nights poring over case law, or the rigorous application processes, but it is the other students here at MLS. Coming to the end of my degree, sadly, I must admit that certain people here are some of the most abhorrent individuals I have ever had the displeasure of knowing.
Picture
Image: Pexels
I am not sure if it comes with the nature of studying law, but there is an exquisite sense of arrogance exhibited around MLS. This ties together with the consistent self-righteousness of some individuals to create what can be quite an uncomfortable environment to be around. I recall the events surrounding the unsuccessful initial merger of Disputes and Ethics. It was a bit of a flop admittedly, but we were killing two uninteresting birds with one stone and getting marked quite generously while doing so. I was quite happy to receive the opportunity to take on an elective I might enjoy more instead as a result. But this was not enough for some of our learned peers, who took it upon themselves to write long tirades to the staff behind D&E and mercilessly mock them on social media because they “deserved” and expected so much more. This is just an example that sums up general attitudes, I could cite many more – in fact I read a survey submission from one student to the LIV regarding new clerkship dates that went to the ridiculous extent of citing case law. The general arrogance and stench of privilege involved in encouraging the LIV to review case law in a survey comment needs not be expanded upon on.

However, the arrogance and self-righteousness has extended far beyond the academic level. There is a level of unaware privilege that reeks from many at the Law School. The same staunchly righteous individuals who claim to have ethical concerns for diversity, the environment or ‘the poor’ are the very same individuals who will happily rail lines of nose candy at Law Ball, despite the trail of butchered South Americans involved in bringing it here. Some people at MLS have become so enclosed in their bubble that they fail to realise just how insufferable they must appear to the public. There is an echo chamber of individuals whose only friends are other JD students and whose housemates are other JD students that parrot the same viewpoints and outlooks that it becomes nigh impossible to hear an alternative opinion regarding the profession, faculty, or the LSS. The LSS does nothing to disrupt this eye-rolling echo chamber, because the LSS is made up of these very people itself.


​It has reached a point now where I feel so frustrated by these individuals that I no longer want to pursue a legal career. I could think of very little worse than sharing an office down the line with LSS office bearers, or the products of a “Law School Only” Carlton share house. Perhaps I am not much better, indeed, here I am writing about how much I dislike people. I should probably just get over it, and in reality, this whole piece could just be condensed down to a simple:


“God, some people at law school are utterly insufferable wankers, aren’t they?”


Anonymous is a third-year JD student. 
Anonymous
8/5/2020 07:39:37 pm

Man. This is a seriously average article.

steven gerrard
8/5/2020 07:44:03 pm

Reckon theres more good people then bad at uni mate, if you don't like the experience and can't appreciate people being passionate for their learning and self progression maybe it isn't for you.

PLU
8/5/2020 07:52:28 pm

Look, the author probably does have a decent point about the cliquy culture of MLS. This 'people like us' (PLU) mentality that pervades the law school becomes ever more tedious as the degree progresses. As a result of the insular and tight-knit nature of MLS, the first year of the JD really did feel like a return to high school after 3 years of undergrad.

But this piece is OTT in its depiction of the average MLS student as a 'wanker'. Yes, I know people love to complain endlessly about LSS etc but really there are a lot of amazing and compassionate people at the law school. My experience thus far has not reflected the idea that it's all about trampling over the top of one another in the race for clerkships/grad offers. Most MLS students I know take a genuine interest in helping each other out and being collegiate whenever possible.

Agreed
8/5/2020 07:54:56 pm

"Law school is a team sport" is a phrase I hear bandied around MLS a lot

?
8/5/2020 07:54:13 pm

Sorry but what is this article? We are in the middle of a global pandemic, many of your peers have lost their jobs, are struggling with adapting to learning from home, are worried about their futures and being unemployed once graduating, are worried about rent and groceries... and now is the time you decide to write an article attacking every person around you?

I’m sorry but this article just comes off as so cruel and bitter. You need to have a good look at yourself and question why you have such strong hatred of the hundreds of students you study with to the point where you felt writing this hate piece was a good idea.

Meh
8/5/2020 07:54:28 pm

Are there shitheads at MLS? Yes, no doubt.

Are there many of them? Probably.

Does it merit an article that is neither informative nor entertaining? Probably not.

De Min editors, in the future only accept rant articles that are at least slightly witty and/or spicy.

SALTY AF
8/5/2020 07:57:44 pm

Time to go to Bunnings and get some cement champ

Let's be kind to one another
8/5/2020 07:58:47 pm

Are lots of JD students privileged? Sure, and those of us who are should be aware of that!

Should JD students socialise with people outside the degree? Absolutely (presuming they've had the chance to meet people outside of the degree, given that some people only recently moved to Melbourne to study). I'm not aware of anyone who actually refuses to have friends outside of law school, but that would be disappointing if that's the case.

Is cocaine linked to various harms? Yes, but there's plenty of 'staunchly righteous' law students who don't do cocaine for that exact reason.

I've found that the JD has been the same as any other social space. There's some people who will be my friends for life, other people I get well on with, some people I only know from class but who have always been polite, some people I don't really take to, and plenty of people I've even never had the opportunity to meet.

There's definitely been times I've disagreed strongly with something another student has done or said, but that's an experience I had in my undergrad degree too. And there's been times I've regretted saying or doing something, but I like to think I'm not an utterly insufferable wanker.

I'm sorry that the author has had such a bad experience. It's a tough time for everyone and I just hope everyone's doing okay!

She doesn't even go here
8/5/2020 08:26:51 pm

I know the comment was really earnest and lovely, but why does this have such "I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school... I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy..." energy?

LET'S BE KIND TO ONE ANOTHER
8/5/2020 08:57:24 pm

I just have a lot of feelings...

A HERO FOR THE PEOPLE
8/5/2020 08:01:53 pm

This article is bang on and the comments from all the butthurt people that are triggered by it only emphasises the point even more - a lot of people at MLS are pretentious snobby wankers who cant handle being called out for being exactly that.

Get over yourselves.

Sincerely,
The unspoken majority of MLS

How do you know you’re the majority?
8/5/2020 08:04:34 pm

I’m confused- most of the comments here are disagreeing with the article and I highly doubt you’ve spoken to the ‘majority’ of JD students enough to know that your views are the majority view.

Perhaps you are the ones living in an ‘echo chamber’ of disdain for those around you!

Anon
8/5/2020 08:12:17 pm

What has happened in these comments is the LSS crew uniting behind a comment front and acting defensive. The same behaviour exhibited by the LSS everytime it is actions or choices are questioned.

Thank you
8/5/2020 08:06:43 pm

This is the only good comment

Thank you 2.0
8/5/2020 08:12:37 pm


the people this article targets (including all the comment crusaders) probably don’t even realise how ridiculous they are in the eyes of a normal MLS student or just normal person actually.
So, while it’s a great article, the point is clearly lost on the people the writer is talking about

Right on
8/5/2020 08:07:20 pm

Hear hear

Confused
8/5/2020 08:08:04 pm

Isn't there a gaping contradiction in your logic here? If you are the 'unspoken majority of MLS', and your contention is that the majority of MLS students are 'wankers', doesn't that make you yourself what you so detest? But trolls have no need for logic and reason ofc

Confused has bad logic
8/5/2020 08:15:18 pm

I don't even agree with OP's post but 'Confused' you're the one with the bad logic.

OP said 'a lot' of people at MLS are wankers, not a majority. So a majority can still be non-wankers and be in agreement that 'a lot' of people at MLS *are* wankers. (Of course, this is a baseless empirical claim by OP).

I know you did the LSAT so I hope you identified the fallacy in your own argument.

LOL
8/5/2020 08:21:00 pm

Clearly you cant read but my learned colleague has already pointed that out

Wow
8/5/2020 08:12:24 pm

Wow ... funny that you should talk about students being “triggered” and “butthurt” by this article when the author has literally opted out of entering the profession because tHeY dOn’T liKe tHe pEoPlE aT lAw sChOol

YOU ARE THE EMBODIMENT OF WHAT THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT
8/5/2020 08:25:10 pm

Even if you did know who wrote this article (not that it actually matters), your comment is redundant for the sole reason that it makes no sense and you're trying to use the Spongebob text meme as a way to hide your mediocrity in articulating anything remotely coherent and plausible. Good day to you m'lady *tips fedora*

Mountain Dew
8/5/2020 08:33:58 pm

You’ve gotta admit tho ... this is the pettiest article *tips fedora back at you*

OMG I LOVE MOUNTAIN DEW, REALLY HYDRATING
8/5/2020 08:57:31 pm

I see you are also one of high fashion sense *strokes neck beard* *pulls out deck of yugioh cards*

In all seriousness though, while this article may be a bit on the petty side (which I love), it does bring up some home truths which are important to flesh out.

THE CONTENT IVE BEEN WAITING FOR
8/5/2020 09:15:32 pm

Agreed - I was shocked at the comments disagreeing with this article so strongly. I think thats just further evidence of the vibe the author writes about though.

I agree that of course not ALL MLS students are like that, perhaps not even the majority, but its the fact that these are the ones you always hear from, the ones always giving their opinion, that they SEEM so prevalent and inescapable around the law school.

L
9/5/2020 10:55:48 am

Tbh love this article and there’s a lot of us who feel this way

Don’t hate the truth
8/5/2020 08:03:58 pm

The title of this article may be excessive but I completely agree with the general sentiments expressed. Many LSS people are the grad student versions of those annoying kids from high school that no one liked. This won’t be evident to many of them reading & commenting, but is 100% evident to all normal people outside the MLS bubble.

hannibal buress
8/5/2020 08:05:22 pm

why are you booing him, he's right

Maybe not
8/5/2020 08:10:33 pm

1. Why do we assume the author is a male?

2. Is it right to publicly defame a fellow peer's name in the name of making a point?

Hannibal Buress
8/5/2020 08:21:30 pm

It's a meme darl search it up xx

Problematic
8/5/2020 08:42:44 pm

Ummmm I feel like your name trivialises the suffering of Roman civilians in the Punic Wars :/

Offended Carthaginian
8/5/2020 09:25:22 pm

Suffering of the Roman civilians??? Bro what about the suffering of the Carthaginians?? Poor bastards lost their entire city

TOORAK SHARE HOUSE
8/5/2020 08:09:23 pm

Is there really such thing as a "Law School Only Carlton share house"?

Might be a slightly exaggeration there

Lawyer X
8/5/2020 08:13:29 pm

Nicola Gobbo would beg to differ!

The Most Accurate Claim in the Article
8/5/2020 08:13:51 pm

Yes, there is. Of all the dubious claims made in this article, the constant "wholesome" social media posts from certain Law School Only sharehouses in Carlton is perhaps the most accurate (and actually irritating).

um
8/5/2020 08:17:20 pm

unfollow babe

Senior Paralegal, Allen
8/5/2020 08:28:52 pm

“Law School Only” gives the vibe that the share house is actively excluding non law school people. If you live with two other people who go to MLS that’s hardly too egregious

Big yes
8/5/2020 08:14:03 pm

Big YES to the person who wrote this.
It’s ridiculous having students lose their marbles over inconveniences which in the grander scheme of things, are actually very minor.
Yes the process of clerkships this year is problematic. It’s extremely unfortunate that the dates have been changed, and sure it’s frustrating that this whole process has now become even more strange. But it would be nice if people could please lend a thought to the lawyers already in the workforce who are struggling to maintain their jobs. Realising that there are millions of people unemployed as a result of covid should help us reason a bit better with the situation: yes it’s frustrating and yes jobs are up in the air. HOWEVER, this is not an issue affecting just us, and we should be mindful of that both within ourselves and in our dealings with others. Quoting case law is really just a bottom rung thing to do and I imagine it was hardly applied in context as there isn’t much precedent on what to do with regards to clerkships during a global health pandemic.
There is a real bubble mentality in this place and I think your mention of coke at law ball captures this. People have no problem being “social warriors”, but actually relating to the struggles of others and our place in the bigger world (and the workforce) is largely absent. This is a real shame because we all have excellent habits and strengths as a result of this degree and I really feel that there are amazing people in the law school will go on to achieve wonderful things both for themselves and others. Hopefully this will improve down the road!

THANK YOU
8/5/2020 08:23:25 pm

Exactly

Thank You No. 2
9/5/2020 09:40:33 am

Pretty much sums it up! Too much performative activism at MLS (there are of course many wonderful and genuine people who want to do good)

YAWN
8/5/2020 08:21:16 pm

Tabloid journalism at its finest.

Sorry but it’s true
8/5/2020 08:29:24 pm

People targeted here will be the ones everyone else avoids at workplace morning tea xoxo

Yes!
8/5/2020 09:00:03 pm

The people targeted (and triggered) by this article will likely end up either burning out or never reaching the point they can burn out, forever stuck in the endless waves of discovery that real lawyers punt off to the associates who can’t do proper work.

the echo chamber is real
8/5/2020 08:45:18 pm

I agree with the general sentiment of the author and the reaction from some of you over this article affirms that. Perhaps the title is a bit hyperbolic, but you must be completely oblivious if you don't think that there's an air of arrogance and self-righteousness pervasive in some in this degree. I mean, what purpose did it serve to cite case law in response to the clerkship survey? Did it really add anything to the situation, other than to perhaps demonstrate to your cohort your wealth of knowledge? Literally no one outside of law school would think it necessary to do that.

On the note of self-righteousness, it certainly is only compounded when students champion particular positions or ideologies only when it furthers their own agenda or as a means of virtue signalling. To corroborate on the cocaine example, I recall one student who prides themselves as being super progressive and huge on social justice telling me quite openly how they were going to snort a few lines at law ball. When I replied saying how I would never touch the stuff because it ruins lives, from yours as a user, to the South American civilians caught in the crossfire of the drug war, I was told that I should not be judgmental. Quite the hypocrisy I'd say.

Hmm
8/5/2020 08:54:38 pm

Point taken re the virtue-signalling tendencies of some at MLS, but 'progressive' these days tends to mean supporting harm-minimising drug policies (eg. pill testing, decriminalisation). But yes advocating a more health-based solution on a public policy level is an entirely different matter from dabbling in an activity that, as you correctly point out, 'ruins lives'.

ASDHDSAHWDHDASH
8/5/2020 08:47:59 pm

idk they kinda grow on you though don't they? <3

STROKEY NAME
8/5/2020 08:52:45 pm

Like a rash xoxo

Srsly
8/5/2020 09:03:25 pm

Does the product people call 'cocaine' in Australia even come from South America? Anyone forking out $300/g for rubbish clearly has too much money.

Pablo Escobar
8/5/2020 09:32:02 pm

Was waiting for the disparaging and ‘woke’ “I know so much about drugs and so I’m going to make a witty and oh so knowledgeable remark about the OP’s reference to coke” comment.

Thanks for coming buddy.

Offended
8/5/2020 09:15:07 pm

How dare you impugne my enjoyment of railing lines of nose candy?

Censorship
8/5/2020 09:15:59 pm

Comment deleted

WH (Online Editor)
8/5/2020 09:34:55 pm

Comment deleted

Seriously guys?
8/5/2020 10:09:56 pm

Can none of you see that he is removing comments that are legitimately defamatory towards him? If he didn't write the article, then you can't just accuse him of doing so. I'd like to think de min would remove comments like that regardless of whether they're towards the editorial team or not.

SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT
8/5/2020 09:23:23 pm

As I read through this article, I found myself physically nodding and relating to each paragraph and each description of the situations and instances the author described, with pretty similar, if not exactly the same scenarios playing out in the 2nd year cohort.

Obviously it's not everyone. Not everyone on the LSS, not everyone in the MLS generally, but if you are blind to the culture the author describes then you are most likely contributing to it. The MLS law bubble is real, the echo chamber is real.

It can be very isolating for those who don't want to participate in this side of law school and who just want to get their degree and enjoy the uni experience without making the law and MLS their entire lives.

Agreed
8/5/2020 09:28:24 pm

Fellow second year, I agree. I don’t know too many third years (and some of the ones I do know are absolutely lovely) but I know of some of those whom this article targets, and the writer is spot on.

Sounds like that one kid in high school
8/5/2020 09:26:35 pm

The author makes the occasional decent criticism of student behaviour to generalise the whole cohort.There are plenty of people that are unlike the picture painted in this rubbish article. They wasted time writing this article when they could have been looking further than the MLS 'bubble' they seem trapped in. Maybe you should have put some effort into speaking with actual people, instead of judging the few who are active on social media.

Innocent bystander
8/5/2020 09:32:32 pm

It can be pretty difficult to ignore the people this article is pointing out, when they are often the ones obnoxiously dominating class discussion or necessary facebook threads about information relevant to the entire cohort

AGREED
8/5/2020 09:40:27 pm

I think the fact that they are so hard to ignore for this reason is what makes it seem like more people are this way than the reality

Pablo’s lawyer
8/5/2020 09:40:05 pm

Also, whilst I agree with the general sentiment of the OP’s article, is it not slightly ironic that they lament the essentially cliquey nature of MLS JD then refer to the legal profession like it purely consists of MLS graduates.

If you’re going to bless the offices of a top tier commercial firm with your prestigious MLS presence, sure, you’ll probably bump into the people you’re evidently looking to avoid. But, *gasp*, the legal profession is vast, and there are a bunch of other places to get law degrees, and you’ll meet a scary amount of wonderfully brilliant practitioners who surprisingly didn’t go to the ‘best law school in Australia’.

poor in law
8/5/2020 10:05:05 pm

top tier commercial lawyers with the salary of a david jones sales assistant (but with more working hours) lol

Nahh
8/5/2020 10:09:25 pm

Why can't we all just be friends?

Point Proven
8/5/2020 10:28:51 pm

I think the comments section may unintentionally prove the author's point?

THINKING THE SAME
8/5/2020 10:39:43 pm

As someone who shares some similar disillusions, I didn't agree with the tone of the article at first, but the more I read the more I'm sold.

Author's nose candy statement is bang on btw, moral gymnastics at play to justify complicity

Exactly
9/5/2020 12:26:22 pm

The tone of the article may be irritating and I’m sure it’s OTT on purpose, but the comments really do just prove the writer’s point. Good job

Michael Peterson (Yes, the very same)
8/5/2020 10:35:09 pm

If you live near a non-polluted source of salt water you can make your own sea salt — simply gather salt water in clean milk jugs or soft drink bottles, pour it into a large pot through cheesecloth and/or a sieve to remove any sand or debris, and boil until 90 per cent of the water has evaporated. Then pour the thick salt water (it should look like wet sand) into a shallow baking pan and leave uncovered for three-to-five days, stirring occasionally.

Once you have your DIY sea salt you can use it to make spaghbol.

End of reign
8/5/2020 10:36:20 pm

Honestly the same attitude shown by the LSS in general, and in response to this article in particular, is defensive, cliquey, elitist and patronising. It is reminiscent of the End Of Reign article last year that highlighted the tone-deaf nature of the insular organisation.

That some at MLS are guilty elitism is no great reveal, but the organisation representing students should be actively working towards disabusing the cohort of these notions. Instead they lean in to it. It appears to be a case of 'thou doth protest too much'.

echo chambre (yes i do speak german)
8/5/2020 10:44:18 pm

The LSS is a hollow echo chamber, and the echo? Cries of 'yaaaas'!

Echo
8/5/2020 10:47:01 pm

Constant pats on the back and mastabatory congratulations

Ok
8/5/2020 11:46:50 pm

Looking forward to reading your candidate profile for Pres. Or are you content to just sit back, do fuck all and criticise others who are trying to make this place better?

OOOOOFT
8/5/2020 11:52:01 pm

Trigger me timbers

I’m sure they don’t even have LinkedIn!
9/5/2020 01:02:08 am

Oh yes, that’s why people want to be on the LSS - to nobly make MLS a better place.

They are the dominant student body that are inescapable from during law school. Just because they’re a volunteer organisation (like every other unimelb student society), does that make them immune to valid criticism?

As several other comments point out, there clearly is widespread inclination toward views that suggest the LSS is an elitist, insular organisation. Perhaps they should do something to address this, instead of jumping to defend their members and their incredible, tireless, amazing hard work and efforts. Every. Single. Time.

ok
9/5/2020 02:06:37 pm

Are you really going to pretend a successful LSS nomination doesn't require internal clout, no matter how meritorious?

Change your policy.
8/5/2020 11:00:05 pm

Just because something can be published doesn’t mean it should. De Min, by publishing anonymous, thinly-veiled criticisms of individual students, you are doing tremendous damage. You are giving a platform to people who wouldn’t dream of casting aspersions against these students to their faces and/or in a public forum.

Enough with the articles that contain barely concealed personal attacks, especially those published anonymously. Of course such articles are going to elicit vicious comments from both sides. Such articles aren’t fair or constructive, and they come at a high personal cost to those referenced and shamed.

Yes, I feel sorry for DM editors accused of penning this article, but it shouldn’t have been published in the first place. When you are willing to publish a bitter hate piece about easily identifiable people, you shouldn’t be surprised or offended when people question your editorial integrity.

Get over yourself
8/5/2020 11:05:01 pm

People are allowed to criticise others.

This may be a general broad sweeping assumption but the fact people are getting so defensive instead of reflecting on their own actions just speak of the toxic culture of MLS

Maybe instead of getting mad about an anonymous article how about spend some time reflecting why there are a growing number of comments agreeing with the author?

No
8/5/2020 11:10:39 pm

If we can't criticise 'easily identifiable people' then say goodbye to any form of journalism that is critical of anything the LSS does then? Bizarre that you're studying law and yet can't see the benefit of giving free speech and different opinions a platform.

Plus, the relevant person 'attacked' in this article outed themselves at the top. That was their choice.

Honesty and Integrity are the best policy
8/5/2020 11:47:10 pm

This could not have been better said!

Hard no
9/5/2020 09:36:51 am

Very much disagree. That would just contribute to the very echo chamber environment that this article point out, correctly in my view, is not a good thing.

Who helped you?
8/5/2020 11:08:09 pm

To all people commenting about how all the LSS does is sit back on its throne of cash to self-congratulate its mediocrity and contribute to the ‘echo chamber’ reflected in these comments:

Did you ‘heart’ or ‘like’ the many posts made by the Education, Equity and Careers directors which clearly explained the massive changes made to assessments and marks by Unimelb?

If yes, pull your head in, be grateful we have some decent people in postions of power going to countless meetings with MLS leadership to advocate on our behalf and make this pandemic somewhat bearable on the academic front.

In fact, perhaps check YOUR privilege (since obviously it’s in abundance at the LSS) and recognise that you would not have taken hours out of your day to advocate for all individuals impacted by the pandemic. Really think about. It’s a bit rich to cry foul about the LSS and its values when you wouldn’t and haven’t lifted a finger to get the benefits you are reaping now.

Get tae fook
8/5/2020 11:13:31 pm

Oh give it a rest, these people put their hands up and are elected to these positions. They can't cry foul when people are not happy with them and they have to accept criticism. They're representatives, and they should be held accountable for their actions! There are plenty of people who apply for these positions and don't get them because they inevitably end up a popularity contest between the usual privately educated, ex-prefect gang.

Give them a break.
8/5/2020 11:18:55 pm

They’re also not getting paid for it. Yeah scrutinise their actions, but you don’t need to get personal. For instance, the assumption that they’re privately educated ex-prefects is a) not fair; and b) (in most cases) wrong.

Who helped you?
8/5/2020 11:20:34 pm

Your comment neither engaged with anything I brought up nor added anything valuable to it.

And please correct me if I’m wrong, but for us to be at law school, we all must have been at the top of our classes in some way or another (perfect or not). No? If you weren’t a prefect, you were at least awarded for your high-achieving academic output.

And also correct me if I’m wrong, but nearly all high school postions are voted on by peers (with perhaps some assistance of staff administrators). So that’s also a popularity contest.

And again, please excuse my ignorance, any job recruitment process (legal or otherwise) is a contest of academic skill, popularity with the interviewers and with potential work colleagues.

LSS Rise Up
8/5/2020 11:22:21 pm

They targeted the LSS.

The LSS.

We're a group of people who will sit for hours, days, even weeks on end performing some of the hardest, most mentally demanding tasks. Over, and over, and over all for nothing more than a little digital token saying we did.

We'll punish our selfs doing things others would consider torture, because we think it's fun.

We'll spend most if not all of our free time min maxing the stats of our CVs all to draw out a single extra point in our pursuit of a clerkship at Allens.

Many of us have made our livelihoods out of doing just these things: slogging through the grind, all day, the same emails to stakeholders over and over, hundreds of times to the point where we know every little detail such that some have attained such LSS nirvana that they can literally recite the LinkedIn bios of KWM partners blindfolded.

Do these people have any idea how many pages of Arlen's books have been highlighted, word documents freezing, disks and carts destroyed in frustration? All to latter be referred to as bragging rights?

These people honestly think this is a battle they can win? They try to hold us accountable for our actions as elected representatives? We're already building a new law society without them. They make fun of our events? The LSS gang aren't shy about throwing their money else where, or even making events only for ourselves.

They think calling us boring, elitist, hypocrites is going to change us? We've been called worse things by prepubescent 14 year olds when we were house prefects at Melbourne's most prestigious schools. They picked a fight against a group that's already grown desensitised to their strategies and methods. Who enjoy the battle of attrition they've threatened us with. Who take it as a challenge when they tell us we no longer matter. Our obsession with proving we can after being told we can't is so deeply ingrained from years of dealing with peers and friends laughing at how pathetic we used to be that proving you people wrong has become a very real need; a honed reflex.

The LSS members are competitive and hardcore, by nature. We love a challenge. The worst thing you did in all of this was to challenge us. You're not special, you're not original, you're not the first; this is just another clerkship application.

Slonk Gangweed
8/5/2020 11:29:50 pm

This is the best copypasta we've had in years. Can't wait to repost this incessantly - LSS Rise Up

What the
8/5/2020 11:40:55 pm

fuck did I just read.

king allen david wood & sons freehills parnter
8/5/2020 11:42:17 pm

thank u. more please

UMMMM
9/5/2020 12:11:27 am

Could 'LSS RISE UP' possibly love him/herself anymore? Actually cannot believe what I just read.

Ahhhh
9/5/2020 09:19:14 am

It’s a joke.

copypasta train
11/5/2020 02:07:30 pm

tell me this is a copypasta

probably also nothing better to do with by day than be a dick
8/5/2020 11:28:26 pm

Pretty entitled of you to spend your days bringing other people down when you can't even put your name on an article...

LET ME GUESS, YOU THINK YOU'RE A SICK B**CH
9/5/2020 12:18:04 am

Get over it, the whole point of being anonymous is to encourage people to not focus on an author but rather what they are saying

Bemused
9/5/2020 12:06:37 am

LSS zealots, keep the comments coming to spice up our Friday night at home. This conversation highlights the two-speed society occuring in the single degree.

Looks like some white ppl shit
9/5/2020 12:13:38 am

Can assure you the Black/refugee/working class or any combination of underrepresented people have always known MLS (or the law generally) has not been an inclusive or welcoming space. While you may have come to appreciate your own and other’s privilege, maybe maintain some grace, rather than throwing stones from your newly constructed house of virtue.

Pasty Boi1
9/5/2020 12:19:39 am

Hey Guys,

People like OP don't understand the time and effort spent at daddy's firm to get the clerkships that I did. I only spent two weeks down at the beach house the whole year and didnt go to skiing in the Alps with the boys so I could dedicate my time and effort to the family business.

And PS Tobias had the rack at law ball and it smelt nice.

Kind Regards

Pasty Boi1
9/5/2020 12:23:16 am

Also does anyone have sports law notes?

Innovation agenda
9/5/2020 01:32:51 am

Thoughts on studying by using the MJ doco?

This isn’t the time to attack
9/5/2020 01:43:03 am

I really hope you thought long and hard about the fact that this is a really hard time, people are going through serious shit, and this article targeted people. People are isolated and lonely, and shit like this, when it is said in such an non-compassionate and targeted way, risks making it worse.

Concerns about de minimis
9/5/2020 08:30:34 am

De minimis- in my entire time at law school I very rarely seen you post anything other than 1) content that no one engages with/is either outright strange or plain boring or 2) articles like this one that target someone. Your usual favourites are the LSS, then faculty, then elites at MLS. Sometimes the hate article is racist, sometimes sexist.

I’ve seen you first hand scheme for controversy, commenting on posts where anyone seems mildly upset about something asking for ‘concerns and criticisms’

The point is, the act is exhausting. De minimis hasn’t offered anything other than a dumpster fire of comments giving people (or maybe the same three people commenting 100 times pretending to be ‘majority’) in years. Last year there seemed to be a tiny bit of hope this was changing, but this year we are back to the exact same type of behaviour and de min is led by the exact same type of people that it has been in the past.

You can say ‘we are only as good as the submissions we get’ but surely that must make you think about why you have a reputation that means you only attract pieces like this, or articles that no one reads? You are not fighting some kind of good fight by inciting anger and hate between your peers without thought or care about the damage caused by these comments. All you are providing is an anonymous space for people to bully one another.

This is the last time I will read or comment on one of your articles. De minimus needs to change.

The messenger
9/5/2020 08:42:02 am

As you rightly pointed out, DM can only publish what they receive. That means DM's function is essentially to hold a mirror up to the MLS community.

Perhaps you don't like what you see, but don't shoot the messenger.

Original commenter
9/5/2020 08:59:47 am

But that’s my point- they aren’t ‘holding up a mirror’ they are just posting mean stuff plain and simple

I’ve had plenty of ideas for articles and in my first year wanted to be part of de minimis. It took me all of 5 minutes to go off that idea after seeing the type of content that they usually post. Why would I want to be associated with this kind of ‘journalism’? Why should I trust editors who behave the way they do to act responsibly when it comes to articles?

De min does need to change and I’m sad that in all my time here, it barely has.

whinge
9/5/2020 09:13:21 am

So they have to stop publishing the articles you don't like (all of them) and then wait for the journalistic masterpieces people were too scared to submit to roll in.

Sounds like a great idea dude!

The messenger
9/5/2020 10:02:13 am

Original Commenter, I think you have missed the point of the mirror analogy.

To the extent that articles are 'mean stuff plain and simple', which I don't agree with, they are a reflection of the MLS community. To the extent they are ~anything at all~ they are a reflection of the MLS community.

If you want DM to change, stand for election at the AGM later this year. I was at the AGM last year and all but one of this year's positions were uncontested. Just a thought.

sk8er boy
9/5/2020 10:19:54 am

@ the messenger

Couldn't your suggestion that 'If you want DM to change, stand for election at the AGM later this year. I was at the AGM last year and all but one of this year's positions were uncontested. Just a thought.' be equally applied to the LSS?

I mean if there is a silent majority and people who dislike the way it is run, don't they have the agency to fix it?

The messenger
9/5/2020 10:47:13 am

Hi Sk8er Boy, I wasn't really meaning to make any implications or insinuations about the LSS - I was directly responding to 'CONCERNS ABOUT DE MINIMIS'.

I don't really have anything meaningful to add regarding the LSS... but, for the sake of argument, I think, in principle, you're right about the change which could be made to the LSS. In principle, membership to both the DM and the LSS committees are subject to a democratic processes, but there are a few important differences. The most obvious difference is size. Another would be compulsory (or maybe involuntary is the word) membership of the LSS. Anyway, the function of these differences is to make the LSS much less ~agile~ and responsive to popular change because, inevitably, the same types get elected every year. There's no denying that to be elected to the LSS you have to be, first and foremost, uncontroversial. You also have to be popular, a go-getter etc etc.

Getting elected to the DM Committee is normally literally as easy as showing up to the AGM. So, yeah. In principle, the same could be said about change at the LSS, but in practice the two are very different

Anyway, that was a random tangent and completely irrelevant to my original point :)

Also concerned
9/5/2020 09:39:35 am

DM, if only you knew the toll that articles like these had on their targets‘ mental health. Meanwhile, OP’s identity and reputation is protected. Look at any great publication in the world - they’re not publishing any drivel that comes in. Farrago rejects submissions if they feel that a particular angle is unfair, isn’t up to their standards or doesn’t add value. You could at least draw the line at submissions as bitchy and pointless as this. Or refuse to publish hate pieces without the author’s name. Freedom of speech has consequences, and people who write pieces like this should put their own name on the line if they’re going to attack their peers.

As editors, it’s not good enough to throw your hands up in the air and say “Don’t blame us! We only publish the submissions we receive! We’ll publish anything!” In choosing to publish shit like this, I hold YOU partly responsible for the toll it’s taking on people. Maybe you don’t care about your fellow students’ feelings or mental health, but at least care about your publication and its standards. Take a long hard look in the mirror and reflect on whether hate pieces like these are something you’re proud to publish.

NECESSARILY CONCERNED
10/5/2020 12:19:24 pm

Simply by placing your potential mental health issues over the clear distress of the OP, you're validating the 'level of unaware privilege that reeks from many at the Law School'.

Freedom of speech conflicts with equality, and by identifying as a 'target' of this 'hate speech' you're identifying as a member of the 'poor me' majority.

'Hate pieces' like these are necessary to facilitate discussion of the racial, privileged, and socio-economically advantaged elephant in the room. While you may not identify with all of these characteristics, bitchy hate pieces like these ones will hopefully help you identify some.

Check yo facts
9/5/2020 09:48:30 am

The ‘first hand scheme for controversy’ you’re referring to was a De Min comment asking for ANY feedback on a changed clerkship/priority offer policy that was going to seriously benefit the 2018 cohort at the expense of the 2019 cohort.

It was advocated for by the 2018 cohort LSS reps (the beneficiaries), and all De Min did was comment on both affected groups’ Facebook threads about it and ask for any comments. That seems reasonable given this is a pretty major change that will affect a lot of people, especially the second years (disadvantageously).

Snooze ya lose
9/5/2020 09:53:03 am

The LSS Reps posted extensive and regular updates explaining the proposed changes AND giving people the opportunity to voice their opinions in a survey. They merely presented the majority’s opinion to the LIV. What more could they have done? Maybe the people bitching about it should have paid more attention when they were given the opportunity to have their say. Fair process and fair outcome.

Leading Question
9/5/2020 09:57:31 am

Also, the “change” to the priority offers and clerkship periods doesn’t disadvantage the 2019 cohort. By asking for responses to that particular question, the commenter either didn’t understand the change to the existing system (which was incredibly minimal) OR deliberately misconstrued the change as something that would disadvantage the 2019 cohort. Either way, it’s irresponsible. Check YOUR facts.

again?
9/5/2020 10:58:19 am

If you still don't understand that 2019 cohort will not be affected in any serious way, I doubt you'll have much of a chance come clerkship time anyway.

checking the fact checker
9/5/2020 11:04:49 am

The original comment requesting subs for de min was in response to second years complaining about the LSS's advocacy in relation to the proposed LIV guidelines alterations. It wasn't posted anywhere else - only on the 2019 JD page, after pretty lengthy criticism of, and push back against, the LSS from annoyed second years. The original comment was edited after a student called them out for seemingly trying to elicit criticisms of the LSS's advocacy. The comment was then edited, and was then posted on the 2018 and 2017 cohort pages. The "first hand scheme for controversy" is not a far-fetched inference. It's pretty spot on, actually.

The original comment, prior to editing, read: "...if you've got a concern or criticism on the current policy or situation, De Minimis would like to hear from you!"

The edited comment: "...if you've got any feedback on the current policy, De Minimis would like to hear from you!"

Yes, I have screenshots.

Max Ferguson
9/5/2020 11:27:09 am

Hi there, ‘Concerns’,

I’m sorry you feel that way about De Minimis. As Managing Editor, the content we post is my direct responsibility.

Whilst I can understand why some people might be frustrated by this article in particular, De Minimis remains committed to publishing as many submissions as possible.

I do not see my role as that of a censor, and I hope you understand that the things we publish do not necessarily reflect the views of De Minimis, or its editors.

If you are unhappy with our content, our pages are open to you. Indeed, if you’d like to write an article on the your perception of De Minimis, I would be happy to run it.

- Max

A regular reader
9/5/2020 11:06:31 pm

Keep doing what you're doing De Min! I appreciate the breadth of articles and have found the recent quality very high - particularly international perspectives on Covid, the quirky history of ghosts in the law, crossword, political engagement, humorous articles.

Please don't let the preciousness of certain groups at MLS degrade the magazine deteriorate into mirroring the FB comments of YAASS QUEEN every time someone from the LSS does something that they self-elected to do.

So many students make a fantastic contribution to making our experience more than an in-and-out degree and I appreciate that - but I don't appreciate when leaders are only able to accept the feel-good aspects of leadership. Man, sometimes people make mistakes/bad calls, and that's okay, but if you put yourself out there as a leader then thicken your skin and cop constructive criticism from the people you supposedly represent.

Recent experiences have shown me that the consequences of questioning LSS authority or even asking for more information is a no-go zone.

Most student leaders have their sights set on important leadership roles in the future - don't cry and whine when your future firm/company/Cabinet question your policies.

What do you want from your uni magazine?
9/5/2020 11:47:37 am

I’m confused about what you want from DM? When their content doesn’t explode in the comments section, it’s boring, and the editors are terrible for not magically pulling talented writers out of thin air. When they publish a piece that incites discussion that people disagree with, then they’re just looking for controversy and enabling bullying.

I and a lot of people I know do appreciate the steady stream of interesting pieces DM puts out on a weekly basis. Are they always amazing? Not even close, but they work with what they have. And I know from having it happen to me personally, that a lot of the time they do actually reject or require rewrites of submissions that cross the line of bullying, slandering or saying untrue things about other students. Truthfully, the alleged personal attacks in this piece were pretty goddam tame until people on both sides of the MLS culture war came out to turn the comments section into a cesspool.

Closing ranks
9/5/2020 12:04:00 pm

And now the DM fanboys come out of the woodworks to their defence. Pretty ironic considering the people who accuse the LSS of doing the same?

Yes
9/5/2020 12:32:41 pm

Agree with the above. It is an incredible effort to even get content in the first place, let alone multiple pieces in a week. No article will make everyone happy and I think that’s the sign that we have a diverse cohort with different experiences and beliefs and it’s fine to bring that to light. It’s also important to remember that generally (though not always) the shitty things come out in the comments section, which is something I distinctly remember DM looking to rectify last year but the feedback was resoundingly that people wanted this format? I think the mirror analogy is spot on here - our voices are all what’s ugly lol.

DM you do an hard job in the circumstances and also don’t get paid for it (perhaps people who advocate for the hard work of the LSS should remember this too).

??
9/5/2020 09:58:31 am

Actually...no. The adversely affected cohort, the 2019 cohort, weren’t consulted and were only told of the outcome after it was done.

How are you adversely affected?
9/5/2020 10:12:42 am

Your year level is affected purely in that your dates are pushed back by two weeks.

The old dates for the LIV are still on the website. Have a look and you’ll see that EVERY YEAR the graduate offer date is at least a week or two before the clerkship application closing date. That means that EVERY YEAR people who didn’t get a grad job could extend their degree and apply again for clerkships. You will have the exact same opportunity when the time comes for you.

You have not been disadvantaged substantially. The people who were going to be most affected by the proposed changes by LIV were the existing clerks, not you.

Please explain to me how exactly you believe you were the most affected.

Piggybacking off this comment
9/5/2020 10:22:52 am

The LIV meeting and discussions were about what to do for this years clerks and graduate offers. It was not about the 2019 cohort and only became about you when your due dates had to necessarily be extended by two weeks to account for the different graduate offer dates. The firms need clerkship closing dates to be after graduate offer dates to ensure that their timing for processing the different stages of the application process are kept as normal as possible.

You weren’t consulted because the discussion was never about you. You were affected in the most minor way which is why the stakeholders (ie people graduating this year into a pandemic) were prioritised in the two days that were available to take submissions.

ALSO
9/5/2020 10:28:22 am

Do you realise you would be much further disadvantaged if the 2018 cohort did nothing?

One of the other options was that the 2018 clerk in November. During YOUR first clerkship period. Either both of us clerking side by side (with you being subconsciously compared to people who had graduated law school and possibly completed clerkships previously) or the 2018 cohort taking your November clerkship period and you being pushed back completely.

Another option I’ve heard was floated was that the 2018 cohort start as graduates in 2022- YOUR graduate year.

This is by far the best option and the consistent complaining about this shows that people either 1) don’t understand how clerkships or the LIV work or 2) are self centred enough to genuinely believe their date change is worse than the real possibility of unemployment for those graduating this year

2nd year
9/5/2020 10:29:53 am

Yeah I think the whole thing was a result of confusion. You have to remember much of the 2019 cohort doesn't have much experience with clerkships and from the date changes might naturally construe things in the worst possible light. This was incorrect of course as you pointed out though. The LSS leadership team did a great job of explaining the outcome and the steps they took (including not consulting 2019). Even if it is a slight change to dates, it is a still a change. It would have been nice to be consulted but I can understand under time constraints that would have been difficult. Even the LSS admitted they would try to do a better job of that next time.

that all said, the LSS and Anj especially did such an amazing job with advocacy and it deserves to celebrated. This whole inter year level beef was just the product of misunderstanding, high tensions in covid, stress on both sides. surely it's squashed

Eco-Friendly Snuff Snorter
9/5/2020 10:08:07 am

Whilst I think this article was bitter and unnecessarily targeted, I do agree regarding the existence of an echo chamber and the hypocrisy around drug use. There are so many social warriors and largely ethical consumers (keep cups; metal straws; beeswax wraps... you name it) at the law school but this utterly falls away regarding the consumption of illicit drugs. This is essentially the only purchase you can make where you are certain that you will be complicit in an industry where numerous people would have died along the way to produce your party drug. Not to mention supporting an industry which frequently undertakes human trafficking, imports and exports guns and arms, and corrupts some governments. If it were legal, it would be another story. And this is not to say harm reduction strategies shouldn’t be supporting either, which is entirely seperate to the casual and complicit use of illicit drugs by privileged law students, who on any other day signal their virtues and and judge others accordingly without realising their own hypocrisy.

Who??
9/5/2020 12:41:09 pm

For what it’s worth I had no idea that this article was about anyone in particular and I don’t think it is?? Clearly it uses examples but I didn’t know who they were about until someone said it was them. When I read it, it reminded me of a whole attitude and clique I see at law school that isn’t directed at one person but a kind of mentality that seems pretty prevalent.

Will you look at that
9/5/2020 01:07:59 pm

Comments deleted...

Editor-In-Chief
9/5/2020 01:35:49 pm

Hi everybody

In the past hour, at the request of several students, we have removed a number of comments which refer to individuals by name.

We are normally loathe to do this. Even when comments become heated, De Minimis always tries its best to support open and spirited discussion, and to give the students of MLS as much control over their paper as we can. We do however also take seriously our responsibilities to individual students, especially when they feel they have been personally identified in ways that may harm their relationships with their peers or future employers. Although finding this balance is often difficult, in this case we have determined that the requests for removal which we received were warranted. I’d like to thank everybody for their patience and feedback, and apologise to those who have been inconvenienced by the decisions.

As always, we invite and urge all opinions and viewpoints, either in the form of online comments or submissions for publication.

Michael Franz
EIC

What comments?
9/5/2020 01:42:21 pm

I didn’t see any comments that specifically named people. This just looks like more of DM selectively applying their so called policies to shield themselves from valid criticism.

Anon
9/5/2020 01:47:41 pm

That's because they've been deleted pal.

WHY IS EVERYONE SO ANGRY ALL THE TIME
9/5/2020 02:15:41 pm

Putting the bin fire of a debate above to one side, it does seem like the law school is particularly susceptible to the cliquey, bitter sniping we see here in the comments (from both sides, whether you claim to be an LSS defender or a outsider who hates the popular kids).

It seems no other department is like this, or at least not to this level. I know plenty of other students at unimelb not studying law who report wonderfully collegiate, supportive, building each other up environments. Students send each other job promos, are friendly with ALL students in the cohort/class and (surprise, surprise) end up enjoying their degree.

Yes law school is competitive, but so are all degrees with job prospects at the end of them... what makes law school so different?

The popcorn tastes good
9/5/2020 05:19:31 pm

Well I have to say, folks. This has been exactly the kind of drama I needed during lockdown. Stay hostile lol

Btw, anon... the line about the nose candy absolutely sent me. So funny.

I do feel bad for your thinly redacted targets, though. I mean, I seriously eyeroll when I interact with a lot of people at Law School, too. I also actively avoid the building when assignments are due and during SWOTVAC (although I do live in one of those "JD only share houses" lol - but my housemates and I are pretty good at calling each other out when needed, so I guess our household is fairly un-echo-chambery).

But you just gotta roll with the punches and get on with your own life. Getting preoccupied with other people is a sure fire way to bring yourself down. You can't get along with everyone. Sure, there are a lot of people on campus (and in life, in general) with ZERO awareness for how other people are feeling. And yes, that can be really annoying. But at some point, you have to accept that that's life. There are people like this everywhere, in every profession. Once you start accepting that, you're going to have a much better time. I know I did, notwithstanding the presence of a fair few "insufferable wankers" in our cohort.

As Sean Connery says in Indiana Jones: "Indiana... Indiana, let it go."

Schmoop
10/5/2020 08:08:09 pm

Cocaine is fun tho...🤔

all y'alls frothing at the mouth over this
11/5/2020 01:58:19 pm

If the shoe fits.

Xoxo
11/5/2020 02:22:30 pm

Well hello Melbourne Law School, it’s me Gossip Girl and from what I’ve heard it seems De Min is trying to steal my crown.

All this backstabbing hatred and convoluted narcissism isn’t doing you any favours. Don’t you all have study to get back to? If you truly want to generate tabloid worthy trash on the regular maybe you should consider the impacts all this nastiness is having on each other’s wellbeing or maybe you are just too conceited to care about those you disagree with.
If my mother taught me one thing it’s that if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything at all … but that doesn’t seem to apply at law school.

And De Min editors if you really want to take my crown maybe try publishing more articles with some substance to them … your reign isn’t going to be for very long and you are making a royal mess of it right now.

Xoxo Gossip Girl

Wholesome content
11/5/2020 03:16:01 pm

At least I’m glad to hear that we’ve all now agreed to write more interesting articles ourselves and take the time to comment and support all of the regular contributors rather than just crawling out to go insane over the occasional piece that’s a little bit mean.


Comments are closed.
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