A Letter to the Associate Dean, The Dean, Staff and Students (and a Note From the Dean)

7/5/2019

Issue 9, Semester 1, 2019

ASAD KASIM-KHAN

This article details instances of how an inflexible ‘policy’ culture at Melbourne Law School leads to silence in the face of discrimination. It highlights how, if unchecked, this can cause great harm and perpetuate a status quo that is violent against minorities.

In 2017, a friend happened across an Islamophobic cartoon printed out on level nine in front of a lecturer’s office. It was removed, and the Dean and that lecturer insisted that they didn’t know how it got there. The Dean responded that the cartoon had been removed, and that she believed it was inappropriate. And yet that the cartoon was ever printed out and publicly displayed in the first place represents a lack of cultural awareness.

Last year, a non-MLS Muslim law student who is my friend was approached by a partner at a firm while clerking. The partner declared he supported Israel and asked what my friend thought. This was discriminatory—a person with power visited humiliation on someone in their workplace on the basis of their ethnoreligious identity, knowing that the clerk could not speak freely, and knowing their likely views.

I reported this incident to an MLS staff member in October 2018, asking, asking what could be done to stop incidents like this, to ensure anti-Muslim racism is less of an obstacle for Muslims entering the workforce. I pointed out that the scarce existing research suggests Muslims are more likely to be in prison than working in the legal system, and indicates that Muslims are a severely discriminated group on the basis of name in the labour market.

The staff member said there was little they could do, however suggested meeting the student to hear the story, and suggested that the student seek redress through anti-discrimination and equal opportunity bodies, and any internal grievance procedures of the law firm and through speaking with a staff member of their own law school. This showed a lack of understanding of how people of colour must navigate these circumstances. It makes little sense for a student to divulge personal information to someone they do not know, to jeopardise their career prospects in any way, when this society discriminates against Muslims and criminalises Muslim men in particular. If you already have barriers to your success, there is no way you are going to feel comfortable challenging those with power.

Further, this kind of advice ignores the ways that complaints early in your career can limit progression. Minorities who already struggle to get into such firms should not be left with the options of either harming their own careers or simply bearing the humiliation.

This response also ignored my concern which was specifically regarding systemic anti-Muslim racism in the job market and legal profession. Indeed, I specifically asked what MLS could do to combat this broader issue, not what could be done for this student. In response, I was told my tone was inappropriate and a formal complaint was made about me. This was once more the weaponisation of policies to stop progress. There was an opportunity to comfort a person of colour, to open dialogue, to explore ways that MLS can ensure Muslims feel listened to at the very least. This was not taken.

The truth is that MLS must do something about structural racism, because it can. To do nothing is to perpetuate the status quo--and the use of policies to silence students is to consciously choose to reproduce these harmful outcomes.

Time and time again students have raised concerns about the way faculty has obstructed progress towards assisting minorities, and time and time again the response is that policies are the reason for this lack of progress. If our legal studies have taught us anything, it is that there is always discretion in how rules are applied, and the use of this discretion is a choice.

After the Christchurch massacre, the invitation to receive mental health assistance through a system that is under-resourced and ineffective was offensive. It was devoid of human touch and ignored the ways that MLS might be a place where Muslims and other minorities feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. In response to this article, MLS leadership have invited Muslim students to a drop-in session. I requested that this session be for all minority students, but that request was denied. Here, now, is an opportunity to listen, and to engage meaningfully with students of colour at MLS.

Going into the drop-in sessions, we will be making these recommendations and urge you, at the very least, to provide a response as to why they are not possible.

1. Ensure students leave MLS understanding the complexity and significance of issues of racism, including Australia as a settler colony built on genocide and white supremacy. Too many students are ignorant about these issues--making it likely they will perpetuate them.

2. Invest in researching minority experiences of the law, including prison populations.
For example, Muslims are likely disproportionately represented in prisons--yet Muslims are not treated as a discrete ethnoreligious category, so this cannot be verified. We cannot combat the issues caused by anti-Muslim racism if we do not even acknowledge the issue.

3. Empower minority students to make change so that MLS and the legal sector are welcoming and inclusive.
This includes giving its most senior staff cultural training so that student concerns are not dismissed, students who make criticisms are not intimidated and are engaged with in open dialogue, and minority students are meaningfully consulted to implement change--for example through a permanent consultative body at MLS. It includes advocating for more inclusive practices, so Muslims don’t have to go to cocktail nights and Friday night drinks to get the same opportunities as everyone else.

4. Target ethnic minorities in their complexity and take action to ensure the law does not discriminate against us.
You can formally adopt a working definition of Islamophobia at MLS and lobby so that the legal sector and legislation reflect the reality of anti-Muslim racism and Islamophobia, and consult with other minorities for similar change.

Or you can do nothing and perpetuate the status quo, which is violent against minorities. It excludes us, discriminates against us, impoverishes us, and kills us.

Asad is a Fourth Year JD Student.

A Note from the Dean
3 May 2019

The drop-in session for JD and MLM Muslim students was held on Wednesday 1 May 2019. As set out in this open letter, the conversation on Wednesday revealed a number of issues of concern. We believe the conversations were productive. Some of the issues raised are and will continue to be the subject of work internally. Others will be taken up externally: for example, with the Council of Australian Law Deans and legal professional bodies. We would like to thank all students and staff who took part in the broad-ranging discussion.

Professor Pip Nicholson
DEAN OF THE LAW SCHOOL

Anti-Muslim racism

7/5/2019 04:49:05 pm

Islam is not and never will be a race, no matter how fervently and how frequently you try to obfuscate

Sigh.

7/5/2019 05:08:25 pm

The fact that you have nothing of value to comment is dissapointing in and of itself.

Somehow, even if the title was changed to ‘discrimination’, not racism, I’m sure you’d find something else of issue.

Admiral Allah Ackbar

7/5/2019 06:41:49 pm

There are plenty of things of issue to find in this piece, but you’re right, this was an exceedingly low hanging piece of fruit that I chose to pluck.

unnecessary

9/5/2019 10:38:19 am

@ ADMIRAL ALLAH ACKBAR -- that name seems unnecessary.

Sectarianism is dumb

10/5/2019 12:04:02 am

Sectarianism is stupid

Sectarianism is for idiots

Sectarianism is retarded

Fuck you DeMinimis

10/5/2019 12:05:33 am

Hey DeMinimis, its pretty telling that you'd remove a comment for supposed 'ableism' and not the comment it was responding to, which is an openly sectarian & offensive comment.

Fuck you.

Lol

10/5/2019 12:49:54 am

So it is openly sectarian & offensive to state the incontrovertible fact that the Islamic faith is not a race.

I foresee a bright future for you at the ministry of truth

have some sense

7/5/2019 04:57:26 pm

Not again, De Minimis! Please have some sense. These law students are not going to engage in constructive debate. All kinds of nuts are now going to come out in full force from the woodwork, pitch forks and all.

For goodness' sake, let students go into exam season peacefully.

Hush hush

7/5/2019 05:18:00 pm

‘Please, somebody think of the children! Their exams! Goodness!’

Confused

7/5/2019 05:17:21 pm

I agree with some of the sentiments in this article but others I think are kind of unfair. Whilst I think universities do have a part to play in addressing systemic racism, I think some of the demands you are placing, particularly on that staff member you approached about the clerkship incident are unreasonable. Did you not mention the clerking student was not even from MLS? What steps exactly did you expect this staff member to take?
We've only heard your side of the story so how can we know the tone you approached the staff member with?

Yes the psych services at unimelb are often not sufficient for any of us but would you have preferred they do nothing at all? I frankly don't think anything could be offered that would truly help in the face of such a horrific event.

I also disagree that students at MLS are ignorant about colonialism and white supremacy. To the contrary I think we hear about it a lot or at least I have in the time I've been here. From property to legal theory to disputes and ethics. I don't think i've had a subject yet where these topics have not been discussed at length. If anything I think occasionally they are brought up when they are not directly relevant.

I do think MLS has made some progress with addressing racism and minority issues and this has to be acknowledged (not that that progress is sufficient and should stop here). But I also think this shouldn't subsume the whole course... I'm not sure how much further you could incorporate these issues into the JD without making the course less about studying the law and more about wider societal issues you cover in an arts degree. The content relating to the law itself in terms of cases and statute is already massive to get through. I agree cultural understanding needs to be increased but I don't think incorporating it into every aspect of teaching at MLS is the way to go about it.

There are so many religious and ethnic groups present in the MLS student cohort. I can't help but wonder how it would be possible for MLS to cater to every one of them in the detail you are suggesting in this article in relation to Muslim students.

Kind of seems like from this article which I believe you've also posted on facebook you're expecting the MLS faculty to solve a frankly massive issue which goes beyond the legal profession ... and then you seem incredulous that they haven't done it yet.

Agree

7/5/2019 07:47:44 pm

+1 to this

JOKER

7/5/2019 05:34:28 pm

And here, we, go!

Captain Pragmatism

7/5/2019 06:28:14 pm

We get it Asad, you hate being a minority, specifically you hate being a religious minority and a racial minority, it is a condition you find intolerable and inimical to your existence.

If your life in this country is so intolerable, as you have repeatedly claimed it to be, might I suggest that instead of trying to overthrow the entire existing Australian social order and reconstruct it to your liking, it would be quicker and easier for you to relocate yourself to one of those hundreds of other countries where you would not be a minority.

Captain Cockhead

7/5/2019 06:36:46 pm

Imagine feeding "they should all go back to their own countries" through a thesaurus and believing that's a valuable contribution.

If I only had a brain

7/5/2019 06:53:32 pm

Imagine distorting a comment into a straw man to better suit your response.

I did not say Asad should go back to ‘his own country’, as far as I am aware his country is Australia. I suggested instead that the evidently great angst that the condition of being a minority in Australia in a number of categories causes him could be more expediently alleviated if he relocated himself to another country where those conditions of being a minority are not present.

Are you serious?

7/5/2019 06:46:44 pm

Are you seriously going with the "Love it, or leave it" response? It is people like you who highlight the need to "overthrow the Australian social order".

A society that is steeped in bigotry is well worth being overthrown in pursuit of something better.

We truly live in a society

7/5/2019 07:02:38 pm

Asad doesn’t need to love Australia or Australian society, but his complaints tend to go far beyond presenting suggestions or arguments for how to improve Australian society. Instead they consistently make the claim that the conditions he and others live under are so oppressive as to to be completely intolerable. In this piece alone he claims that the status quo;

“is violent against minorities. It excludes us, discriminates against us, impoverishes us, and kills us.”

So if life here is so awful and you are apparently literally being impoverished and killed, why stay when it is relatively simple to just leave for a location where you are no longer a minority and these problems are presumably not present?

Jason Brand

7/5/2019 07:26:40 pm

Perhaps Asad does not want to leave Australia because he (secretly) enjoyed the advantages he has had of going to a wealthy private school (so much for socio-economic disadvantage), and a BA and now JD at Australia's top law school!

simple thinking

9/5/2019 10:43:19 am

@ JASON BRAND: someone can have privilege in some areas of their life and oppression in others -- oppression is still oppression. or did your reading never progress beyond goodies and baddies in fairy tales?

Huh?

7/5/2019 06:50:11 pm

Overthrow the whole social order?

Asad advocated for nothing of the sort.

What a cheap way to dismiss someone’s claims. I for one wish you’d return to the nation of your ancestors, and save us of your ignorance.

Clive

7/5/2019 06:49:53 pm

"Last year, a non-MLS Muslim law student who is my friend was approached by a partner at a firm while clerking. The partner declared he supported Israel and asked what my friend thought. This was discriminatory—a person with power visited humiliation on someone in their workplace on the basis of their ethnoreligious identity, knowing that the clerk could not speak freely, and knowing their likely views"

Sorry, I'm not seeing how a person in authority stating that they support Israel, and asking what another person thinks, is in any way discriminatory. It might be unnecessarily inflammatory, but from what you have told us, it is not discriminatory. It might be likely to be discriminatory, but that does not mean it is.

You need to show 1) that the partner knew that this was a sensitive issue for your friend, and 2) that the intention of the partner's action was to put your friend in a negative position vis-a-vis other people in the workplace.

Simply being Muslim does not place you above discussing interesting topics of discussion in the workplace. The claim that you can't 'speak freely' in a workplace has no validity until you can demonstrate that in this particular workplace, your friend was so restricted.

Obviously, i'm not denying that similar discriminatory practices do not occur, but in this particular circumstance, i'm not seeing anything indicative of discrimination. Let's not blanket innocuous questions as discriminatory, please. It does more harm than good. .

Cartoon drawing of the prophet Mohammad

7/5/2019 07:08:15 pm

Asad is on record starting that Israel should cease to exist as a state and that its continued existence is inherently racist, so for him simply the support of Israel alone is grounds for being oppressive

Asad Kasim-Khan

7/5/2019 07:46:15 pm

I actually am not on the record saying that at all. The State of Israel as it exists is a colonial racist state. The article I wrote was nuanced and actually emphatically said that, just like South Africa, Israel should move passed its colonial heritage and all people in Palestine should have equal rights – in line with 21st century norms of multiculturalism and equality. You're welcome to join me in the 21st century, or you can justify ethnonationalism and Israeli war crimes regardless of the evidence. I'm sure you'll keep lying but I won't be checking these comments again so enjoy.

Vlad the implyer

7/5/2019 07:59:25 pm

>lob shit
>people lob shit back at you
>cry and boycott your own article

7/5/2019 07:57:48 pm

Hi Clive,

If you read my article you can actually see that I explicitly state the reason I brought this story up was because of my concerns for anti-Muslim racism in the profession and how this will affect both myself and my friends at MLS. I.e. there is a responsibility to do something when the students are students at MLS.

Secondly, maybe you aren't aware, but the colonisation of Palestine is a sensitive topic to all Muslims. It is especially problematic when a partner at a law firm who is pro-Israel makes these comments to an Arab clerk. If you don't see this power disparity and how inappropriate this is, how this could limit the scope of their career prospects, then you don't really know anything about this issue at all and I encourage you to listen and put your own feelings to the side.

7/5/2019 08:23:48 pm

Hi Asad,

Your concern is clear and valid, and it is shared by me. Discrimination and prejudice make me puke. However in this case, my particular distaste, which you may not share as strongly as me, is a distaste for arguing incorrectly. It is not as serious as your concern, but a concern nonetheless. I am particularly concerned, because it can lead to people applying a distorted definition of discrimination, and accusations of discrimination where none is, in fact, occurring.

I am not denying discrimination occurred in your friend's circumstances, but the onus of proof is on you to demonstrate something more. Something more would include something to the effect of: 'the partner knew he was a Muslim, and his use of language indicated that he intended to press the issue for enjoyment at his emotional expense'.

The creation of the state of Israel (however you want to phrase it, I would say colonization is valid) is not a concern for 'all Muslims', just an indeterminable proportion of them likely to be greater than non-Muslims. The presumption of sensitivity makes discussing the topic inappropriate in most circumstances, but hardly discriminatory unless something more is shown. Supposedly, that 'something more' is the fact that it is always inappropriate for a clerk to disagree with the partner on an issue that is subject to a wide variety of opinions. Not all workplaces operate in an environment where this is always, or even sometimes, inappropriate. As I am sure you have learned in your law degree, context is important.

Tilly

7/5/2019 10:36:47 pm

Can you just elaborate on your bracketed comment about colonisation? Thanks.

Judean People’s front

7/5/2019 10:47:14 pm

Presumably he is referring to the Arab colonisation of the levant after the Islamic conquests and the eventual ramifications of that

7/5/2019 10:56:31 pm

Sure Tilly.

The partner stated support for the state of Israel. The confronting element would be inclusive of the acts leading up to the creation of Israel as a state, as well as the acts of Israel post-1948 that have given it its current form (e.g., settlement of the West Bank). Obviously, in consideration of Israel's settlement policy, the 'creation of Israel' in its envisioned form is an ongoing project.

My view is that the these acts encompass more than just the colonization of the area of Palestine, and these other events might also be a sensitive topic.

Misguided anger

7/5/2019 07:58:19 pm

I agree with your core sentiment that MLS should fight against systemic discrimination, and I think some of your recommendations would be good to implement, but it sounds like you're completely overcome with indignation and it's clouding your practical judgement.

Take one of the incidents you mentioned. From your retelling of events, what the second staff member offered was to start a dialogue by hearing your friend's perspective, and referring you to bodies which can take further action should you wish to. That sounds perfectly bona fide and reasonable to me. That they then went on to make a formal complaint about you suggests to me you crossed the line somehow — and your conveniently omitting whatever you wrote that caused this complaint makes me think you know you did something wrong as well.

So it comes off as disingenuous when you try to gloss the formal complaint made against you as the 'weaponisation of policies' to oppress a minority group. Staff members have a right to voice concerns about how they're treated, and trying to silence them with pseudo-racial guilt is wrong. There's enough actual discrimination that minorities have to deal with without you trying to start a crusade just to feel validated over a quarrel you had with a staff member.

And this goes to my main problem with your article. Your overwhelming tone is one of feeling deeply offended and outraged at a litany of things others have done to you, but you don't make any convincing connection between those feelings and MLS. You assert that MLS 'can do something' about general racism in the legal profession, and so must act lest it perpetuate the status quo, but you fail to actually demonstrate what this 'something' is or could be, and to what extent it's actually capable of changing the status quo. And this is crucial, because there really is so much MLS is capable of on this front.

Your recommendations are for the most part fine, but if we're being honest with ourselves they're not nearly enough to solve the discrimination in the legal sector (and workforce more generally), because that problem stretches far beyond the Law School. So your tone of offence and anger seems misguided to me when addressed to MLS and its staff. If a staff member tells you there's not much they can do, the chances are it's not because they secretly have it out for minorities, but because there's actually not much they can do; because there's not *that* much MLS can do to address your extensive list of grievances.

So my suggestion is to save the indignation for a more appropriate target, and your rhetoric — which contains some very valid points — might be more effective.

As an aside, classifying Muslims as a 'discrete ethnoreligious category' is highly contestable and my guess is it would draw considerable ire from many Muslims who don't in fact consider themselves to be a coherent ethnoreligious group. But that's neither here nor there.

7/5/2019 09:30:45 pm

I very much take issue with the premise from which you start. That being, because Asad has become "completely overcome with indignation" that it it clouds his judgement. The fact that you start with this means, essentially, that you don't acknowledge the very real and very valid frustration Asad feels with the establishment.

The fact that the onus so frequently falls on the marginalised party is, I think, what Asad takes great issue with. The fact that you say that suggesting courses of action that marginalised students could take is, to be frank, patronising. The reason this is so is because it then becomes the duty of the marginalised group to push the issue further, and as Asad mentioned, the "proper channels" will not always generate sympathy.

I vehemently disagree with your statement that Asad has failed to make any convincing argument that MLS could do to change the status quo. He makes a series of reasonable and able-to-be-implemented requests. They are about education on structural racism and inequality. And before you tell me you learn about this in property law or ethics, I can tell you that you barely scratch the surface.

What MLS is 'really capable of' is acknowledging that the land on which we learn is stolen (I'm happy to provide you references if you want to take a reductive Mabo view on this) that law is not equal because it is entirely contingent on how much you can pay for representation, that, in fact, the legal system works in favour of the rich and white. Instead, MLS presents a view of law that is devoid of societal context, including what Asad has mentioned.

If you want to claim the title of being the best law school in the country, then take responsibility for the legal system that you're advocating for. That is literally all Asad has asked for.

Unconvinced

7/5/2019 10:45:01 pm

'you don't acknowledge the very real and very valid frustration Asad feels with the establishment'

Because I don't think his frustration with MLS is valid. That's literally my argument.

'The fact that you say that suggesting courses of action that marginalised students could take is, to be frank, patronising.'

What did you want the staff member to do exactly? "I'm sorry this has happened to you. I will drop everything, take you under my wing and won't rest until justice is served." This is an MLS staff member, not a case worker — giving the student an opportunity to voice their story and suggesting next steps obviously won't solve the problem, but it isn't a response that warrants anger. Feeling frustrated doesn't mean you can dump the responsibility on some MLS staff member to be your personal advocate.

'I vehemently disagree with your statement that Asad has failed to make any convincing argument that MLS could do to change the status quo. He makes a series of reasonable and able-to-be-implemented requests. They are about education on structural racism and inequality.'

I endorsed his recommendations for the most part. I disagree that they'll do much to change the status quo. 'Education' can only go so far, particularly in a place like MLS where most students are already very well educated and would have come across these ideas before.

'And before you tell me you learn about this in property law or ethics, I can tell you that you barely scratch the surface.'

Wow so woke, please tell me more about how uninformed we all are on racism and inequality.

'What MLS is 'really capable of' is acknowledging that the land on which we learn is stolen'

Doesn't MLS already acknowledge this? It's in all the subject materials, at the start of most classes, at the start of all public lectures, etc

'law is not equal because it is entirely contingent on how much you can pay for representation'

MLS already expressly teaches this in ethics, and frankly I think it's pretty insulting to imply that MLS students aren't intelligent enough to make this basic observation about our legal system.

'the legal system works in favour of the rich and white.'

Look I agree more could be done to incorporate all these issues you keep mentioning, but to suggest it's all some big secret being swept under the rug is false. Anyone going through the JD will be exposed to this stuff multiple times.

'MLS presents a view of law that is devoid of societal context, including what Asad has mentioned.'

Assuming for a moment that the primary source legal materials we study don't themselves recognise societal context (they do), this is demonstrably false. I'm happy to provide you references to subject materials from first-year core subjects that expressly contest that view of the law.

In any case, the JD is not primarily a reflective degree — it's a practical degree meant to teach professional knowledge and skills. Would you insist that the Doctor of Medicine be crammed full of subjects on the history and philosophy of medicine and how medicine has oppressed people, and its theoretical shortcomings and injustices? No, because students need to actually learn how to practice medicine. Sure they should be exposed to the ideas, but there's only so much room in a degree.

'If you want to claim the title of being the best law school in the country,'

You and I both know that university rankings have nothing to do with social justice activism. If anything they're based on archaic elitist measurements that you should disavow if you're being consistent, so this is a weird quip.

Also cool how you, too, conveniently neglected to address the formal complaint against Asad. If 'literally all Asad has asked for' is for the university to 'take responsibility for the legal system they're advocating for' (whatever that means exactly), why did a staff member feel the need to make a complaint against him? If he wants his anger to feel at all legitimate, then at least give a balanced retelling of the facts.

7/5/2019 11:02:37 pm

We're at an impasse. Asad's anger is very much a reflection of how poorly the law school represents anyone who isn't heterosexual, white, and rich. There is a lot to be said about the cartoon not being there in the first place. That aside, you're presenting a weak-ass strawman of infantilsing what Asad has said. He's literally asking that Faculty reflect on their motivations on particular behaviours.

If you think that's somehow an unreasonable request, that really just reflects on how you have a poor ability to learn further. The fact that you think that higher education equates to the ability to critically interrogate ideas really just affirms the point being made. If you think MLS students *are* intelligent enough to make the observation that money equals representation, then you haven't being paying attention. There is a terrifying devotion to the idea of the legal system, such as it is (i.e. if we all have representation or the idea of representation, the inequities will fall away)

Please, do provide me with the materials you believe challenge this view. I guarantee that they don't actually address what has been stated here. To state that it's somehow a grand conspiracy just reiterates the point that the majority of students feel very threatened by what has been addressed by Asad.

I'd also like you to expand on your "weird quip" comment. If you believe, for a second, that the sole purpose of a law degree is to teach "professional knowledge and skills" then you miss the very purpose of what law is, was, has been, and could be. It isn't solely a vocation. To believe that people who know what to do with law is something outside of something that is so obviously shaped by the societal forces that be, I genuinely have no idea what to respond with. This isn't a fucking trade in language. Please acknowledge that it has an enormous impact on people's lives.

Not your pet

7/5/2019 11:21:28 pm

Once again a privileged white women charges to the rescue of minorities presuming to speak for them and their experiences.

7/5/2019 11:29:25 pm

I'm sorry you feel I did that, Not Your Pet. I would merely like to unpack the sentiment that MLS is somehow doing enough to combat sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and classism. It is the best law school in the country after all. It is creating the future leaders of the nation. Seems funny not to ask, no?

Pls stop putting words in my mouth

8/5/2019 12:29:43 am

As someone who is neither heterosexual nor white, his anger does not reflect me.

'He's literally asking that Faculty reflect on their motivations'. Cool if that's what he's asking for — maybe he should put it in those words next time instead of telling a one-sided story about a staff member (unwittingly?) abusing a formal complaints process to silence a a member of a minority group.

'you think that higher education equates to the ability to critically interrogate ideas' — no I don't. I didn't 'equate' higher education to critical thinking skills. What I said was that education can only go so far, as in it *can* go a certain distance, but if you want it to alter the status quo of the entire legal system, these relatively small educational interventions that Asad has suggested probably won't cut it.

'If you think MLS students *are* intelligent enough to make the observation that money equals representation, then you haven't being paying attention.'
I shouldn't be the first to point out the irony that the first thing you accused me of was being patronising, and here you are calling most of your peers too thick to know that it costs a lot of money to hire a lawyer. Whether people *care* is another (important) question, but it's pretty arrogant to assume that only the elite woke minds of MLS *know* that representation can be prohibitively expensive. I guess, as you said, we're at an impasse on this point though, since neither of us are going to survey the student body are we.

'To state that it's somehow a grand conspiracy...' — another misreading of what I said. I was criticising what *you* said because you made it sound like MLS was deliberately hiding all this information. Why would *I* believe the MLS is guilty of a nefarious conspiracy to withhold knowledge when I'm defending it lol
'... the majority of students feel very threatened by what has been addressed by Asad' — love the blatant posturing.

'If you believe, for a second, that the sole purpose of a law degree is to teach "professional knowledge and skills"' — I *once again* didn't say this. I said the *primary* purpose (read: it has more than one purpose) of the *JD* (read: not all law degrees) is to teach professional knowledge and skills. What you think the course ought to be like doesn't change what it is, or what most people expect it to be, or what most people want it to be when they sign up for it. If people want a degree more heavily focused on self-reflection of their field of study and social justice, they have the option to pursue many degrees which offer that.

Materials:
PPL compulsory reading:
-Irene Watson, Aboriginal Peoples, Colonialism and International Law
-Uluru statement from the heart
-Diane Otto, 'A question of law or politics'
-James Crawford, 'Sovereignty as a Legal Value'

Disputes and Ethics compulsory reading:
-Stephen Pepper, 'The Lawyer's Amoral Ethical Role'
-Productivity Commission, Access to Justice Arrangements
-NYT, 'In Sexual Harassment Cases — What are we settling for?'
-Rosemary Hunter, '(De-)Sexing the Woman Lawyer'
-Clare Land, Decolonizing Solidarity
-Irene Watson, 'Buried Alive'

Legal theory compulsory reading (at least for my stream):
-Irene Watson, 'There is No Possibility of Rights Without Law'
-Isabel Karpin 'The Economic Value of Human Relationships' and Kylie Burns, Cattanach v Melchior
-Ratna Kapur, 'Human Rights in the 21st Century'

But since you 'guarantee that they don't actually address' the issues of our current legal paradigm, I'm gonna take a wild guess and predict you'll come up with some outlandish reason why none of the above sources matter, like 'most people at MLS are too bad at critical thinking to read any of them properly'.

'Please acknowledge that it has an enormous impact on people's lives.'
I don't see how I denied that the law has an enormous impact on people's lives. I've acknowledge several times that there are serious problems in the legal field and that there needs to be systemic change — I just disagree that berating MLS staff, no matter how righteous one might feel in their frustration, is a smart path to achieving that. But, once again as you rightly said, we're at an impasse.

8/5/2019 01:24:22 am

Thanks, unconvinced. Please, do tell me the nuances of legal pluralism based on Irene Watson. Explain the law of the land to me, and then to the treaty commission. Tell me about how non justifiliability works in the wake of Coe. You realise that the reading list you provided is because students like Asad got angry? I genuinely can’t be mad because your naïveté is showing.

Can you still hear me from up on that high horse?

8/5/2019 02:45:59 am

'I genuinely can’t be mad because your naïveté is showing.' More empty condescension. It's honestly a wonder you tried to guilt trip me for being patronising in the first place considering you can't go a single comment without trying to talk down to me.

Admittedly I was a little off. The sources, indeed, do not matter — not because MLS students are too dumb to understand them, but because *I'm* too dumb to understand them. Don't know how I missed that one.

Sorry, Tilly, but it's a little unreasonable of you to expect me to write a thesis-length reply trying to summarise like 12 different journal articles and books just so you have an opportunity to virtue signal about your apparently encyclopaedic knowledge of oppression.

Please thank these so-called 'students like Asad' for me because I am genuinely glad these readings are on the course. But just a couple points:
1) It would be great if you could name a few of these 'students like Asad' and how exactly they acted when they 'got angry', because at the moment it seems like an unsubstantiated attempt to slot Asad undeservedly into a romanticised narrative about all the wokest students at MLS over the years and how they brought the establishment to heel
2) If you can concede that these readings prove MLS's view of law is not 'devoid of societal context' — which I think you know is an absurd hyperbole — then I'll reiterate that MLS can do more on this front and we can (hopefully) just agree on at least this one point.

Matt

8/5/2019 07:26:59 am

‘What MLS is 'really capable of' is acknowledging that the land on which we learn is stolen’

Tilly, have you seriously never heard a lecturer or other staff member deliver and acknowledgement of country?

Acting as a white saviour for racial minorities, or an able bodied saviour for the disabled is fucking tiring and you DO NOT speak on behalf of us.

Please graduate already

11/5/2019 02:36:09 pm

Actually, Tilly has done quite a good job of making my point and I appreciate her efforts. I'm going to skip the nonsense here where people have tried to suggest that because what I or she says doesn't represent the view of every single minority it's somehow irrelevant or doesn't have to be properly engaged with. If you feel like it doesn't reflect your views, then you can make your views heard - at this point you can't even do it under your actual name so I think I and the other reasonable people will listen to those who actually have the guts to make their statements with their names.

I also am going to assume the original commenter here is a staff member because of the specific arguments they've made.

I can categorically tell you that the complaint made about me was made about my tone. When I asked what about my tone was wrong I got no response. When I got the complaint notification, I asked the head of grievances whether it was being investigated and he told me that they were merely telling me the complaint had been made and no action was being taken. This to me suggests the complaint was meritless, and in my email I was nothing but polite but distressed. If I had actually done something wrong then the complaint would certainly have been actioned. As it is, I have no misconduct complaints lodged against me that have been investigated or been actioned. It's very easy to make a complaint, it's much harder to substantiate it. To assume that because there is a complaint that something wrong has happened is not only unreasonable, it's contrary to what we learn in this degree – you don't know the facts and yet you've made a judgement.

On your point about ethnoreligious group, you're of course right that there are many Muslims who won't agree. However, there is also overwhelming evidence that many Muslims, especially second generation Muslims in the West, do actually identify with each other in this way. Mostly this is a result of the radicalisation of Muslims which has occurred, and which is evidenced by the way that hate crimes happen against Muslims – examples of this are those with proximity to the radicalised Muslim, like Hindus who are targeted because they are brown, Sikhs because they wear turbans, etc. There is also evidence that those who join groups like ISIS from the West do so on the basis of shared heritage and beliefs and the moral compulsion that they have to help their own people. It goes without saying that I don't agree with their actions or the actions of the group or any group like it.

Further, and more to the point, the radicalisation of Muslims mirrors the racialisation of the Jewish people in Europe. The truth is that there are also Jewish people who don't agree with the classification of the Jews as an ethnic group, for historical reasons which I'm going to assume you know. It's also true that the Jewish people are diverse, there are Jews from Ethiopia, Central Asia, India, Russia, the Iberian Peninsula, North Africa, and the Middle East. To suggest that these people are all one ethnoreligious group recognises the elastic nature of the concepts of race and ethnicity, for which you can turn to the whole field of critical race theory. Therefore, to say some Muslims don't agree is not some kind of fatal argument against what I've said, but quite a superficial response. It completely ignores the way that anti-Muslim racism operates – again, for which you can turn to critical race theory.

The very fact that you wouldn't question the Jewish people as an ethnoreligious group but would Muslims betrays your utter ignorance of these ideas so I strongly encourage you to read up and educate yourself.

charb

7/5/2019 08:43:43 pm

what a sad, angry little man

so to get it straight - MLS is deliberately using policies to inflict 'violence' against 'minorities' (as if this is some monolithic group)?

sounds legit

Worrying attitude

7/5/2019 10:25:50 pm

I wouldn't say that Asad is an anti-semite, but reading through his Facebook posts in the past, he often criticizes people specifically as being Jewish separately from whether or not their religion is at all relevant to the point he is making.

7/5/2019 11:13:16 pm

really interesting how the supposed anti LGBTIQ comments fell away for no reason?

Ham

8/5/2019 07:31:21 am

Agreed. De Min, why are you happy to delete comments here but also happy to publish that terrible, inflammatory law ball article?

I. N. Consistent

8/5/2019 09:34:26 am

Weird how the awful comment/thread with the R word hasn’t been been deleted? Care to comment, @demin?

THANK YOU ASAD

8/5/2019 10:39:08 am

Thank you and well done Asad - for highlighting long-standing issues of oppression.

Bloody peasant

8/5/2019 02:17:10 pm

Help help I’m being repressed

The colonel

8/5/2019 10:47:07 am

Israel has a right to exist

Cassandra

8/5/2019 02:20:04 pm

This comment will be deleted for hate speech

reading comprehension skills

9/5/2019 10:44:53 am

did you not see Asad's comment above, clarifying his position on Israel?

Basic logic skills

9/5/2019 02:00:11 pm

The debate over Israel's right to exist isn't a debate over some random country that happens to be called Israel, it's over whether a Jewish state should exist. When Asad says Israel is a racist endeavour and should reject ethno-nationalism he's saying it shouldn't be a Jewish state and ergo shouldn't exist. It's really not that hard to grasp.

Whether or not he's right is another debate, but let's stop the pretence that he has some clever nuanced position on Israel's existence.

Alana

8/5/2019 10:56:53 am

Thank you Asad.

These comments are an absolute mess but despite it all this is a really important piece.

I think it's important that everybody reflects on why they're uncomfortable with MLS being obligated to act on such issues.

Does anybody really think universities have no role in maintaining structural racism? This seems to be a wilfully blind attitude tbh.

If in doubt, be like Mulan and reflect before you snack. *act.

I plus one this

8/5/2019 11:02:11 am

yes 1000% agree- y'all who comment here- please reflect on your privilege andt the impact you yourself have in upholding structural racism by sitting here denying and silencing the voices of minorities.

I minus one this

8/5/2019 11:44:38 am

The only minority voice that has been silenced so far is the self-identified Muslim student above who disagrees with Asad and had his comment deleted by a mod. Everyone else has been allowed to voice their opinion. Dismissing counter-arguments as a form of “silencing”, when people have every opportunity to respond with their own views, is disingenuous.

re: privilege

8/5/2019 05:01:05 pm

Going to a private school is a privilege. But people of colour aren't immune from marginalisation or discrimination on the basis of race simply because they had that opportunity. I went to both public and private schools and witnessed racism against students of colour in both systems.

Clarification

8/5/2019 02:02:33 pm

Hi Alana, I’m the person who was debating with Tilly above — I suspect your jab about universities having no role in structural racism was directed in part at me, so thought I should clarify a bit.

I’m disappointed you thought I was saying universities have no role to play in structural racism, or no responsibility in combatting structural racism. I understand that the conversation got quite lengthy, and I wasn’t succinct in my writing, so apologies if more than I originally intended came across from everything I said.

My main point was and still is that Asad, and I guess Tilly as well, should bring a bit of a decorum to the debate, and present a more balanced perspective. If Asad wants to get irate at MLS so be it, but at least give good reasons for it rather than an obviously biased retelling of events. Don’t make accusations that MLS staff have “weaponised” university policies to oppress a member of a minority without more solid evidence to back that up. This is more than just a provocative political opinion, it’s a serious claim about a specific person’s conduct that warrants more consideration and balance than what Asad editorialised he said she said storytelling.

As for the point of universities’ role in structural oppression, if it wasn’t already clear from my repeated statements that MLS should combat racism and can do more, my politics are in fact progressive. I do care about social justice. But I think it’s unfair for people, Tilly in this instance, to make accusations that MLS is some oppressive hellscape that has zero sensitivity to issues of social justice. Engaging in this sort of hyperbole helps nothing and no one — if we want to make things better than they are we need to be balanced in acknowledging the actual state of affairs as they are, both good and bad, not as we wish they were for our own rhetorical purposes.

8/5/2019 10:00:15 pm

Thank you for having the patience to debate as you did and say so well what I, and I’m sure others were thinking when they read this article and subsequent comments.

9/5/2019 01:46:48 pm

Yeah you have the patience of the Prophet himself, thanks for voicing such a calm, coherent and accurate opinion!

Sorry

9/5/2019 01:52:39 am

As a Muslim I would like to apologise and make it very clear that Asad's views are not shared by the majority of us. We are a minority currently navigating a tense time but we do not hate Caucasians, Jewish or LGBT people.

Asad does not hate being a part of this minority. In fact, he loves it, he thrives off it. To be able to play the victim and blame others for his position is how he excuses his own faults. It is always much easier to point the finger at someone else than to accept your own shortcomings. Every single thing he posts is politically-charged and anti-West. Make no mistake - he hates the West, he hates white people, and he hates Israel.

Muslims are not like this, please DO NOT associate him with us. I know Asad personally, he grew up in a very privileged household, attending a private school - his upbringing was essentially free of persecution. His lifestyle growing up was not Islamic, in fact he did not choose to identify as a Muslim until the wave of Islamophobia arose years ago, giving him something to play victim to. He decided only to take interest in his heritage around this time as well, prior to that he ignored and distanced himself from it where possible. He is pretending to speak for us but we do not know him nor do we agree with the anti-Western sentiment he continuously echoes.

Again, I am sorry for his behaviour but please do not let his ranting taint your perception of us.

Peace.

+1!

9/5/2019 12:34:42 pm

Thank you for making this clear to those who may not have known this. As a fellow Muslim, I totally agree that while more can be done to help Muslims and other minorities navigate the profession, it is important to call out opportunistic behaviour and those who use victimhood (especially as a weapon as they themselves come from a position of privilege) to further an insidious agenda, as unfortunately Asad seems to have done here.

10/5/2019 03:39:41 pm

Hi guys,

I seriously doubt you actually are Muslim law students at MLS. Having said that, you would know that most or all Muslims at MLS have been invited to form a group, a Muslim Law Student Society of some sort, to liaise with faculty on these issues. That group will be made in line with processes and will be informed by each member having some say on its direction. I intend to be part of that group and not its leader, and the leadership will be elected.

Since you either a) are Muslim and are already part of discussions around it b) are not and are trolls, this is a bizarre way to slander me. It's also bizarre that you're attacking personal views that you've made up instead of engaging meaningfully with the open letter I've written at all.

None of the Muslims at MLS know me beyond the last two years. None of them grew up with me. None of them know about my financial background. Pretty much everything here is a blatant lie and it is absolutely revolting that people are bringing up lies about my background and family here.

If you are Muslim, reflect on how you have slandered me and publicly attacked me – not even having the basic integrity or decency to include your actual name or to raise these issues privately at all. If you are Muslim and you are in the group, you know I shared this article before it was published. You didn't say anything then.

It's Ramadan and you're spending your time behaving in this way. What a shame. I don't believe you are Muslim and if you are, you are lying. Stop now.

Amen

10/5/2019 03:49:24 pm

Thank Christ this joker will be graduating soon

Another +1

13/5/2019 02:26:48 am

100% agree with the original comment. And did Asad really just try to religiously shame another Muslim for disagreeing with him. Ridiculous.

gratitude and multiplicity

9/5/2019 10:47:57 am

thanks Asad for taking the time to write this article, and for being willing to submit yourself to everyone else's comments and criticisms.

also just wanted to remind everyone that people within a certain social groups (e.g. muslims) can have differing opinions, and that doesn't make any of their opinions less valid! it's normal for people to have different opinions, even when they have some things in common. thanks

Qodratullah Sultani

9/5/2019 03:41:02 pm

I think it is rational as a human being (whether Muslim or Atheist) to say that one prefers certain elements of the Israeli government's approach to society's needs such as good roads and infrastructure or a good health system compared to other Muslim countries. Just like one prefers White Australia's approach to infrastructure and development than indigenous approach.

It is better for future Palestenian generation to make peace with Israel rather than supporting extremist groups supported by Iran and Suadi Arabia that teaches them to be violent and not co-exist in one country.

It is better for them to live under Israel rule with better infrastructure and development potential than to rely on foreign Muslim countries. 21% of Israel is already Arab.

I agree that the Israeli government ideologically is racist. But it is something that can be improved on with debate and peaceful means.

henry

10/5/2019 10:01:16 pm

Think you need to get over yourself. One day you'll discover that the whole 'practice' of law is largely arbitrary and unfair anyway (ps if you want to see real discrimination, have a look at how the big firms only employ pretty people). Anyway the real issue is that very few of you will get jobs when you graduate because there are too many law students and not enough positions. Not worth paying 140k (or even 40k) for.

De Minimis Editorial Team link

11/5/2019 09:12:31 pm

De Minimis has always and will continue to encourage robust and healthy debate between our readers and members of the MLS community.

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